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*Official* Pak In NZ Thread

Bouncer

State Regular
So Pakistan have reached NZ for 2 TEsts and % ODI's....The wickets are different but Pakistan have done well in NZ compareed with other teams in past. The lost the last ODI series they played in NZ 2 Yrs back, and did not win the test series after going 1-0 in the series. Knowing Pakistan, they always take past defeats seriously and try to make up for that.

Lets see what happens...The most i am looking forward for the pakistani batsman to play on NZ wickets, NZ bowling in not a great deal to worry but the differnet conditions are going to be a good test for them. Lets see how they come out of it.
 

anzac

International Debutant
IMO if Pakistan can concentrate on playing cricket then they would deserve to be slight favorites.

Their squad is fairly settled & in form in both forms of the game, so I would say they are at full strength apart from Razzaq's illness. They have 2 genuine quicks in their opening bowling attack with decent back up, Kaneria is a class leggie, and their batting lineup is capable of scoring heavily with their new palyers in the top order performing well since their Home series v RSA.

NZ pitches are traditionally low & slow & don't offer as much pace & bounce for the seamers, nor do they support as much grip & turn for the spinners. However Pakistan have done well as their attacks have had enough class to get the best out of the pitches, and are a step above what the local batsmen face in domestic conditions.

This will be the first Away series for this squad and Pakistan are a bit like the French Rugby Union side - they do not travel well & can be hot & cold. It will be interesting to see how they deal with their internal politics following the resignation of the Chairman during the recent ODI series.

Last time out they dominated the opening exchanges until their internal politics disrupted the squad & performances. This lead to some 'curious' selections & laxidasical play in the last test in which they were soundly beaten.

It's also curious to note that NZ were below strength at that time with Sinclair in his 2nd series, and the bowling attack was still struggling to rebuild as it was the 2nd series after the RSA Tour. From memory I don't think Cairns, Vettori or O'Connor saw the series out following on from the Home series v WI.

This current NZ team will also be below full strength with the 'class' batsmen & Captain being unavailable (Fleming & Astle). Similarly NZ's 'class' seam bowler is out (Bond), and Cairns continues to struggle to find form with bat or ball. Furthermore NZ will have a new Coach for this series so this will be an unknown factor for the team.

While I'm confident the replacement players & Captain will step up to the mark, IMO the telling factor could be the loss of Fleming's leadership & influence as he provides that bit 'extra' that lifts the performance of this side.

When on their game Pakistan can beat any team, but they can become emotionally brittle when placed under consistant pressure. NZ have a good record of 'strangling' the opposition & it will be interesting to see if they have the firepower to be able to maintain this.

The Test series should be a good contest, but I'm not so sure about the ODI series, as I do not think NZ resolved any of their dilemas on the recent ODI series in Pakistan & are still looking for options & answers.

:)
 

anzac

International Debutant
If Fleming has done his hip & is unavailable for the ODI sereis, this will cause some real headaches for the selectors.

Not only have the failed to resolve their bowling problems & lineup, but they will now be forced to find a new top order with both Fleming & Astle out!

This is one of the reasons I was critical of their failure to experiment during the recent ODI sereis in Pakistan,esp re promoting McCullum to opener to see how he went.

The X factor for me is Bracewell & his vision for the ODI team. Will he gamble with new & untried players / combinations from the start, or will he retain some level of consistency.

Nos 3 - 5 for me would be Styris, Marshall & McMillan, as Styris is closer to Astle in style than the others. Marshall can bat thru the innings but has not shown he can 'erupt' like Astle, Styris or MacMillan. Does he retain Vincent to open with either Cumming or McCullum? Or does he look to bring in a new player in McIntosh? Does he consider opening with Styris? Is Marshall an outside chance to Open?

This is where my local knowledge fails me as I have no idea what the top orders are for the State ODI teams, nor do I know what the player styles are like.

:(
 

anzac

International Debutant
Having had a thought about it & based upon my limited knowledge re domestic lineups, the more I'd like to see this lineup given a shot (although it probably won't happen this series)......

Styris
McCullum
Fleming
Marshall
McMillan
Cairns
Oram
Vettori
Adams
Tuffey
Bond

The pairing of Styris & McCullum is the NZ equivalent of a M Waugh & Gilchrist in styles. The instruction would be to play each delivery on merit until comfortable with the pitch, then see what they can do, but NOT to ignore conventional cricket shots. The Aussies usually back up a boundary with a single if possible next ball just to keep the strike rotating & stop them getting a rush of blood. Fleming reverts back to no3 as Ponting is for OZ. Marshall also fulfills the Martyn role to round out the top 4.

I'm not too comfortable with having Cairns, Oram & Adams in the same side - if Cairns is not on his game (particularly with the bat) I would look to replace him with a specialist batsman - preferably one who could offer some swing like Astle did, or some spin as an extra option & as opposed to having yet another medium pacer / allrounder. The priority would be the batting contribution as opposed to a bowling one - similar to that offered by Symonds for the Aussies.

Australia basically bat strongly down to no7, whereas NZ struggle past no5 (if the top order gets going at all). Oram needs to contribute with the bat which is why I have him at 7 so he has some chance at making partnerships.

Similarly I'm not keen on having too many 'allrounders' / 'hitters' following each other - can lead to either a loss of quick wickets if everyone at the crease is trying to go to the fence, or the run rate drying up if they fail to connect or take the singles - hence Vettori ahead of Adams & another reason why McCullum at the top, rather than have something like - McMillan, Cairns, McCullum, Oram, Adams etc......potentially very explosive, but also very brittle if forced to come in & go for the fence straight away.

I'd also limit the number of 'allrounders' to 2 positions as occupied by Oram & Adams. Players such as Walker, Canning, Wilson etc would have to contest these along with Adams & Oram. In this lineup Cairns is in for his batting impact not his bowling, as Styris would be my 6th bowling option until Cairns' bowling is back on form.

:)
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
The NZ bowling attack will be totally different to what they were like in India & Pakistan.
They may lack pace, but these guys know how to exploit seaming conditions.
 

Salamuddin

International Debutant
Ummm Anzac.....

Re: your statement that Pakistan are like The French Rugby team in that they do not travel well.

You may or may not be aware of the fact that Pakistan have a very good record in New Zealand -- the head to head between Pakistan and New Zealnd in New Zealand is actually in Pakistan's favour.

Pakistan are arguably more competitive away than they are at home -- they seem to relish the thought of taking on sides in their own backyard.
Pakistan defeated Australia 2-1 in 3 game one day series in 2002
in Australia.
They won the Carlton & United series in 96'97 -- only RSA in 2001/2002 have done that feat recently.
In 1999-2000, they provided Australia with the most competitive
home series the Aussies have had in years (not withstanding the commendable efforts of your Kiwis in 2001/2002).
The 3-0 scoreline was probably a little flattering to Australia -- a dreadful umpiring decision (langer off Akram) robbed Pakistan of almost certain victory in the Hobart test.
 

marc71178

Eyes not spreadsheets
jamesryfler said:
Ummm Anzac.....

Re: your statement that Pakistan are like The French Rugby team in that they do not travel well.

You may or may not be aware of the fact that Pakistan have a very good record in New Zealand -- the head to head between Pakistan and New Zealnd in New Zealand is actually in Pakistan's favour.
That is irrelevant since they are so inconsistent!
 

anzac

International Debutant
jamesryfler said:
Ummm Anzac.....

Re: your statement that Pakistan are like The French Rugby team in that they do not travel well.

You may or may not be aware of the fact that Pakistan have a very good record in New Zealand -- the head to head between Pakistan and New Zealnd in New Zealand is actually in Pakistan's favour.

Pakistan are arguably more competitive away than they are at home -- they seem to relish the thought of taking on sides in their own backyard.
Pakistan defeated Australia 2-1 in 3 game one day series in 2002
in Australia.
They won the Carlton & United series in 96'97 -- only RSA in 2001/2002 have done that feat recently.
In 1999-2000, they provided Australia with the most competitive
home series the Aussies have had in years (not withstanding the commendable efforts of your Kiwis in 2001/2002).
The 3-0 scoreline was probably a little flattering to Australia -- a dreadful umpiring decision (langer off Akram) robbed Pakistan of almost certain victory in the Hobart test.



Most established cricketing nations have a positive win - loss record v NZ, even in NZ. Even under Fleming NZ's win - loss record is still in the red so far as I am aware - they have really only started to not loose too many series in the past few seasons.

I'm sure someone will be able to correct me but the last series loss I can recall off the top of my head (apart from the debacle in Pakistan with the abandoned series), could have been in RSA on that injury plagued tour 3 years ago in the '99-2000 season. Since then they have series wins against the West Indies (2), India & Bangladesh?, drawn with Pakistan, England, Australia, Sri Lanka & Zimbabwe. In the back of my mind I have a feeling they have lost a series somewhere but I can not put my finger on it.

I'm aware that Pakistan has a good history in NZ, but not of the exact stats. Almost any team with a genuine pace attack will do well on NZ pitches, as they have the pace to exploit the best from them and make things happen that are not experienced in domestic competition. Any team with a strong batting lineup should also be able to score runs, except for situations like last year which were not the norm.

Pakistan thru the years has been blessed with some of the quickest bowlers around, along with class in spin. Together with their traditional batting strengths they are a formidable combination.

Despite this I still maintain that they can become emotionally brittle when pressured, particularly if things are not going well behind the scenes, as they have done so often over recent seasons. For every strong series you have mentioned there would be equal number of inexplicable capitulations.

They are a real Jeckle & Hyde team - hence the comparison to the French RFU team. When they want to turn up & play you are lucky to be able to put a hand on them - esp on Bastille Day, yet at other times they self destruct with the most appalling lack of discipline to their game.

:)
 

anzac

International Debutant
Latest news re Fleming is that the specialists want him to play this weekend in order to better assess his injury / recovery regarding his availability for the Test Series!

I'm not sure if this is a good sign or not, but it raises some interesting questions. If they are that keen to risk him to get an accurate assessment under palying conditions, could it be Bracewell's doctrine re player form & fitness is being felt, and are they worried regarding Cairns' current form?

:cool2:
 

anzac

International Debutant
Tim said:
The NZ bowling attack will be totally different to what they were like in India & Pakistan.
They may lack pace, but these guys know how to exploit seaming conditions.

They won't lack for too much pace if Butler plays in the Tests - he is possibly close to Sami around the mid 140s mark.

Likewise in the ODIs if they play both Wilson & Adams - Wilson = mid - high 130s, and Adams = high 130s - low 140s.

And yes their 'lack' of pace re Tuffey, Oram, Styris (& Cairns) will not be so much of a problem on NZ wickets.

:)
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
ahhh yes, Butler does have pace..but he is known to be a little erratic at times, apparently he gave the C.D batsmen a torrid time in Gisbourne earlier in the week though.
 

anzac

International Debutant
Tim said:
ahhh yes, Butler does have pace..but he is known to be a little erratic at times, apparently he gave the C.D batsmen a torrid time in Gisbourne earlier in the week though.

granted that consistency / accuracy are a requirement in ODIs, but for Test cricket I'm more interested in his being able to give the batsman a hurry up / surprise them every now and then re lift of a length etc.

I don't mind if he goes for a few runs so long as he is causing problems and still taking wickets while not giving away too many no balls or rank long hops - that's what an aggressive bowler does for me. Furthermore such a bowler can be a good foil for someone to take wickets from the other end, just as much as an unerringly accurate / tight bowler can be.

Chatfield was a case in point for the latter for NZ in Tests, but in ODIs his consistency was used against him by Miandad as they knew where he was going to bowl & were able to improvise.

:)
 

thierry henry

International Captain
This is my NZ test team

Vincent
Richardson
Fleming/McIntosh
Styris
McMillan
Cairns
Oram
Hart
Vettori
Tuffey
Butler

A few contentious issues. I despise Lou Vincent but he must be selected considering he scored a century last time out. Obviously I think Jones or Marshall are the most likely replacements but I like McIntosh- I'm distinctly unimpressed by Jones although who knows, he could be useful in a Richardsonesque way, while I can't see why you would select Marshall, 42 first class games and 0 (!!) centuries at an average of below 25. McIntosh has 7 centuries at 41 from 37 first class games.

Styris, McMillan, Vettori and Tuffey pick themselves. Cairns hasn't played a test for 2 years but I'm assuming he'll be picked. Oram also will most likely be picked although I am not a big fan. I would definitely pick Butler, I don't see who else they would pick instead. Obviously there is some suggestion that McCullum will be picked, and I would actually quite like that, but on form he hardly deserves it.

Another point is, isn't McIntosh an opener, not a no.3? Vincent could always move to no.3, but again I can't see the selectors breaking up the Vincent/Richardson partnership considering they put on 200 last time.

Long term I would prefer McIntosh opening with Richardson and Sinclair at 3 (he and Vincent are both flat track bullies but Sinclair is better at it, and hey, there are a lot of flat tracks around these days) but it's unlikely to happen in this test.
 

Craig

World Traveller
You even disopise Daniel Vettori Thierry.

Also I should add Eden Park no.2 will host its first Test instead of Eden Park no.1.
 

Tim

Cricketer Of The Year
Aye?

As far as im aware, Pakistan are playing 2 tests at Hamilton & Wellington.
Auckland will play Pakistan tommorow at the Eden Park outer oval..but thats not a test.

South Africa will play a test at Auckland but it'll definately be at the stadium...I don't think the #2 has international blessing from the ICC yet.
 

anzac

International Debutant
ok so the squad for the 1st Test has been announced and I'm ****ed off........

Fleming, Richardson, Vincent, Jones, Styris, McMillian, Cairns, Oram, Hart, Vettori, Tuffey, Butler, Wiseman.

13 players with 2 to be ommitted from the starting lineup. Jones is named as batting cover for Fleming so he is one probable, and I'm hoping the other is Cairns but it will probably be Wiseman, as NZ seldom take 2 spinners into a Test unless it is a real turner, and I can't see that being the case on domestic pitches at this time of year with so much wet weather.

I'm ****ed that Cairns has been selected because IMO he does not deserve to be named on current form. He has not played Test cricket for some time, his form in recent ODIs with bat or ball has been poor (apart from 1 innings of 80+), and his current domestic form shows him having scored 9 runs from 11 balls, and taken 4/103 at 4.9 RPO - hardly Test match form so far as I'm concerned.

IMO Cairns' inclusion in the playing XI will weaken the team so far as both batting or bowling is concerned because of his lack of form. IMO they would have done better to select Oram as the 'allrounder' and to have picked another specialist batsman or bowler, depending on what the pitch has been playing like. THey already have 4 seam options without Cairns so I am presuming they are looking at him to contribute with the bat, in which case Marshall or McIntosh could have been used, or Wilson as the form bowler.

I'm also disappointed that Jones got the batting cover ahead of either Marshall or McIntosh - although it is understandable that the selectors want consistency with Jones fulfilling this role on the last 2 tours. My gripe here is that Jones in an opening bat & his style limits his coverage options. The other alternative is to use him to replace Vincent as opener, and use Vincent to cover the top / middle order - but yet again this will be screwing around with Vincent's role in the team at a time when he is starting to get back on track!

I prefer Marshall & McIntosh as they have more options in coverage. Marshall gets my vote as he has current form v Pakistan & has a Test cap already. I'm not too concerned about his domestic form as it appears to me that he is a big game player.

I'd like to see McIntosh get a run in the squad (at least) very soon because his conversion rate in domestic cricket is 2nd to none - 24 ys old, 61 innings, 7no, 7x100s & 10x50s at an average of a touch under 41.

:(
 

thierry henry

International Captain
Well I can't share your angst at Cairns' selection, a fit Cairns has always been a certainty for any NZ team. If Fleming is fit and they leave out Jones and Wiseman (which is likely) they will have the team that I picked:D

I am however disappointed that Jones was preferred ahead of McIntosh, and Wiseman's selection is a bit ridiculous really.

As for Marshall, nope, I can't agree with your rationale at all, he's done less to deserve selection than Lou Vincent had so odds are he'll be as crap if not crapper.
 

Choora

State Regular
In NZ Pak is going to get hammered!! Face it, Pak has a lowsy batting line up and in NZ condition they would struggle to even reach 100 in one innings (irrespective of the fact that Bond willplay or not).

When batsmen of the class of Tendulkar/Dravid and Laxman weren't able to perform well on NZ pitches, then how the hell can we expect Pakistani batters to play decent cricket.


Atmost Inzi might get some runs!
 

Choora

State Regular
Assuming Pakistanis getting pasted in NZ and India comming out stronger at the end of Australian series, the upcomming Indo-Pak series would become very interesting.This is what Akram said recently, Aussie series is only going to make Indian team stronger.If Indian batsmen can take Ausie bowlers with ease, then facing Pakistani bowlers would be like a piece of cake.:saint:
 

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