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***Official*** Bangladesh in NZ 2021-22

wellAlbidarned

International Coach
Yeah one thing I hate about this whole debate is you go down an eternal rabbit hole of how fast people actually bowl anyway. Guys like Rabada and Bumrah for example would be used to support the idea that you need express pace but I’ve seen them bowling so much in the 130s in tests.
totally unfounded but I think there's something in having a few extra ks up your sleeve. being able to bowl within yourself in the high 130s when the batsman knows you can go quicker could have some impact. I know if I was facing cummins I'd be a little more apprehensive against the short ball even if he was bowling 135 compared to a southee where that's his max.
 

straw man

International Coach
Kyle Mills makes some good points in commentary but needs to slow down, especially when he's trying to describe something slightly technical.
 

thierry henry

Cricketer Of The Year
The Australia debate is so weird when Jamieson seems like he was genetically made in a lab to play in Australia.
Also isn’t Hagley like the 3rd bounciest pitch on Earth or something? Plus South Africa (or at least certain grounds) can be a great place to bowl 130kph and hit the seam. Also, India have gunned it in Australia with a battery of seamers under 6-foot tall, which makes no sense. So many variables. Not saying ‘NZ conditions’ don’t exist, but the mythical seamy road that’s only easy to bowl on for our exact bowlers is a bit of a self-contradictory nonsense.
 

Meridio

International Regular
Do you remember Dale Steyn by any chance?
Obviously, and he generally operated around 130-135 in his later years.

The idea that you need to have extreme pace is a total myth. It's useful, definitely, in certain situations and in certain conditions. What matters, and what gets shown over and over again, is the ability to move the ball either in the air or off the seam, and relentless accuracy - it's no good being able to bowl a few jaffas in test cricket if you stray into the pads or short and wide twice an over
 

Days of Grace

International Captain
Dale Steyn I don’t think ever bowled at 150 kmh consistently. 140-145.

Every bowling attack around the world might have struggled on that Mount pitch if they had a couple of “off” days. I can recall many circumstances where this bowling attack has bowled the opposition out on flat or slow decks at HOME, especially in the 2nd innings.

We lost the first test because of the batting. We score 450 or even 400 in the first dig and this conversation would not be happening. Not to mention the Wagner no ball.

Having said that, it would be good to play a spinner and once Wagner goes, we need another “point of difference.” If that is a fast bowler, then they won’t be able to bowl Wagner’s amount of overs. Thus, a spinner will also be necessary.
 
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Athlai

Not Terrible
Yeah the bowling didn't fire but it still did its job for the most part. We left a few hundred runs on the board in the first innings and that's what cost us.
 

SteveNZ

International Captain
It's a worry that NZ were not prepared to really grind for runs at the Mount, but are looking like a million dollars in all facets at Hagley.

The Hagley wicket has absolutely nothing in it for spinners, but apparently is a fantastic wicket. Maybe we need wickets with something for the spinners - even if only on the 4th and 5th days - so that we can progress Ajaz and build a team that can win in all conditions. Something is wrong when Ajaz is taking bags overseas but has zero wickets in tests at home.

A wicket like this ultimately just gives us a false sense of security about where the team is at. It says that if you have an attack made up of some medium pace swing & seam bowlers then that is enough: you can win handsomely with those and there is no need to have true variety in your attack.

It's a Phyrric victory here at Hagley in many ways; we get to beat the cr*p out of Bangladesh and celebrate the individual milestones on the NZ players, yet the disappointing and revelatory nature of the Mt Maunganui loss cannot be dispelled.
It would be nice to produce wickets that suit spinners later on, but is our climate capable of producing that? And even if we were able, why would we do that when we have four world class seamers? No other country is changing their pitch conditions to build a team capable of winning overseas, and nor should we. At domestic level, maybe. And absolutely, A tours etc should develop the skills to bowl and play spin. But no Board in the world is going to OK a plan to conceivably win less Tests in the short-term for a long-term view of winning in the sub-continent. We can win anywhere else with our approach.

The 'nature' of the Mount loss, at least in my view, was an incredibly disappointing and unparalled (for us) complacency, which was too late to recover once we'd realised we had to. Worth remembering we convincingly beat Pakistan and England on the same deck. Great thing is that international teams have coaches and managers who do not dispel losses - they thoroughly analyse them and use them to get better. So don't sweat on that. We were mud, but one Test loss (two if you count India) doesn't necessitate the sort of cynicism you seem to be promoting
 

SteveNZ

International Captain
Kyle Mills makes some good points in commentary but needs to slow down, especially when he's trying to describe something slightly technical.
Haha, usually I would jump all over you for daring to criticise the King, but you're actually right. He gets quite quick and flustered to a point, like he's furiously trying to get across the genius that is in his mind. He'll get there. All the greats do.
 

straw man

International Coach
Haha, usually I would jump all over you for daring to criticise the King, but you're actually right. He gets quite quick and flustered to a point, like he's furiously trying to get across the genius that is in his mind. He'll get there. All the greats do.
He's either worried someone or the cricket will interrupt him, or that he'll lose his train of thought part way through.
 

HeathDavisSpeed

Hall of Fame Member
Seems like the response of many is just to shrug off the horror show at the Mount and even actually suggest we should stop playing tests there, rather than say that that test exposed some alarming deficiencies that will no doubt show up again as soon as we take on strong opposition. If you drop a bloke who just took 10 wickets for you because the home pitches have absolutely nothing there for him then something is badly off. Imagine Australia dropping Lyon in similar circumstances. We are going down a blind alley when we double-down on producing a certain style of pitch.

I like the idea of teams preparing different wickets to ensure that we can grow players who can bowl attacking spin and batsmen who can face attacking spin. The idea of, perhaps, each region having two grounds, one prepared as a traditionally prepared pitch and one as a more "subcontinental" style would be useful. For ND, Mt Maunganui becomes the spinning ground, Seddon Park the standard. For CD, plenty of options, but Napier has more of the climate for a spinning type ground. Perhaps more problematic in Wellington where there are few FC standard grounds. My concern is that the Plunket Shield doesn't feature enough games for this to truly be useful. If you're only playing less than 10 FC games a season, then you're unlikely to reap the benefits.

From a similar perspective, a team like Bangladesh would really, really benefit from having a couple of their FC teams hosting an England/South Africa/NZ style pitch. Not only would this prepare their batsmen better, but it also might encourage a few more young players to take up seam bowling. Similar limitations apply though. Fundamentally, until Cricket Boards decide to take FC cricket more seriously - which in "minor" nations is limited by financial considerations - then some of your concerns will remain.
 

thierry henry

Cricketer Of The Year
Shanto creaming a hip high long hop straight to fine leg followed by Mominul trying to run himself out by 5 metres was an elite 2 balls of test cricket
 

SteveNZ

International Captain
Shanto creaming a hip high long hop straight to fine leg followed by Mominul trying to run himself out by 5 metres was an elite 2 balls of test cricket
Not to mention Mominul clipping one straight into Will Young's shoulder at bad pad the ball after. So good
 

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