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*Official* 1st Test - England v India - Keep all Discussion Here Please!

full_length

U19 Vice-Captain
Whoah you guys have really been at it!

Just a few things that caught my eye:

- exactly how is "indian fans are so deluded" an appropriate response to:
I think ganguly is not the most sharpest captain in the world. But neither was steve waugh too. Guess the biggest strength of those two are that they motivate their team and make their teamates perform at thier best.

And for all those bashing SG...here is a thought...ever since we started playin we lack discipline...no matter what tactics you employ if the bowlers dont stick to a plan then you are gonna get thrashed.

If i remember correctly in the 5 tests in windies and 2 tests in SA...indian bowlers bowled with discipline in exactly 3 innings in 3 separate tests.
One resulted in a victory and 2 in hard fought defeats.

No matter what plans u have if a agarkar proceeds to bowl short at 130 mph..it defeats all purposes..right ?
??

In relation to this, may I add that the chap most resembling Perfect_Mo is you (roy) -this is something I thought way back when you were being as bullheaded, arrogant and overwhelmingly anti-India as ever. Mo is a teenager, and probably more direct. You are just one of those that shrouds racism in a cloak of decency. Dressing up narrowmindedness doesnt change anything.

One would have thought a response to that quote above would involve the players, or captain, or anything of cricketing. A sweeping judgement on Indian fans is stupid to start with, and much worse.

- One on one discussions are common in discussion boards, and the best way to get order in the board is to be fairminded, and let members settle their disputes. Glad to see that the moderators didnt strike this one down. Else it would simply have spilled over all over the board.

Cricket:

-A captain cannot bowl for his bowlers. Steve Waugh could do nothing for Shane Warne against India, or McGrath against Razzaq or ... Most people would readily acknowledge the immense impact Ganguly's leadership has had on Harbhajan. Even that wouldnt have amounted to anything had the bowler not kept his line and length.

-Scorpio, Ganguly's legside play improved way before he was made captain.
Your points earlier about how ganguly has now sorted out his problems and hence is a better player are very valid. (this is another for his batting form being independent of captaincy- not that i doubted it.) However, this should also support my arguement earlier that Ganguly was always a class act. He was tested with short pitched deliveries, and his loss of form came about with this (not necessarily due to this). But he's the kind of chap that always makes it count when in form, so we are in for some good stuff :) In ODIs he's actually been a superior performer to even Sachin for a good part of the last three or four years. When the chap is in form, you usually see consistency. We are already seeing some of it now. He had a bad decision in the second innings of first test. So that makes it three matchsaving/matchwinning knocks in three matches so far this series. And the knocks in the second half of the WI tour.. This is what he's capable of. I think that Geoff Boycott's suggestions to him are in a big part responsible for this. ofcourse, the only one who can confirm that is SG himself :D

-I dont know how nobody remembers this, but when ganguly was made captain, for a while the comments were about how captaincy hadn't affected his batting at all. That was because we were playing more ODIs.

-he had a century in NZ also? apart from his debut series in England..



-discussions at sports.com was largely crap, but like in any place, one can always find sensible discussion if one wants to. We always used to have a bunch of people who'd periodically choose to inform everyone how crappy the site is...didn't understand why all these chaps couldnt find anything in common :D anyhow, roy's strongest point in all his debates over there is unfortunately useless here...about how long another poster's posts are, or grammatical errors (he ain't exactly Dickens either.. or is he :) ) . So we know atleast one guy here misses sports.com a lot.

- any chance we'd get to the debate at all instead of sidestepping and shadowboxing?
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
FL, you sound extremely bitter, I'm sorry if I have contributed to any of it. I do remember having a long drawn out discussion at sports.com with you, but that was it, no hard feelings.

Just FYI, I'm not against any team, and definetely not a racist! I say it the way I see it. And I'm also the first one to admit my mistake.

As for sports.com, actually I do miss it, not for the strange reasons you gave, but for a lot of the guys who havent come here, wazza, youhanna, wrecker, coon, bigvince, esky, leggie, yorker, and others. I had disagreements with many of those guys, but it was never personal like you seem to be taking it. Once again no hard feelings, just relax.
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
Roy you really have a tunnel vision. Anyway let me shoot that argument to pieces too...

If you read your post carefully, you would realize you are self-contradicting yourself in the same post. At one point you said that Ganguly like Steve Waugh is a good captain because he makes his teammates perform at their best.
It means buddy...Both of them motivate their players and make them feel comfortable. See..comfortable and relaxed players perform better in case you didnt know.


Then later on, you go on to say what can he do if his bowlers (Agrakar et al) do not bowl like they are supposed to. Isnt that self-contradictory????? If Ganguly cannot influence his bowlers to perform according to plan then how do you say he makes them perform better. Would S Waugh allow his bowlers to bowl the way they please, i.e. short and bad line. NOPE. Hence I called u deluded.


Agarkar has played under 3 captains and he continues to spray like a dickhead he is. Indian bowlers have a tradition of not sticking to a plan. You might see that even now after nearly 5 yrs he still does that. Despite being dropped and all.

He has influenced the cricket of

1. Yuvraj Singh
2. kaif
3. harbhajan
4. Dravid
5. Sehwag
6. Bangar
7. Zaheer

Apart from this he has supported agarkar and nehra too boot.

Steve waugh has the luxury of dropping bowlers who dont stick to a plan. (Kasprowicz, Macgill).While ganguly does not have that luxury.

It is not self contradictory. It has some subtle nuances...may be u should ask someone to help u comprehend it buddy..

He was along with Dravid the second best Indian batsman at the time when he became the captain. When I say that I mean on all surfaces and in ODI and tests. FYI, when a batsman is judged overall he is judged against every opposition, on all kinds of pitches and in all forms of the game.


Ganguly was never indias second best batsman. (May be in ur view). When he started out AZHAR was still india's second best. We had siddhu too.

Ganguly was second best in one days.
In tests he came 4th after Tendulkar,dravid and Azhar. Get that.


When I say that I mean on all surfaces and in ODI and tests. FYI, when a batsman is judged overall he is judged against every opposition, on all kinds of pitches and in all forms of the game.


Shall we call VINOD KAMBLI A WORLD CLASS BATSMAN ? He Averages 54..despite sucking against pace. But by yourargument he is better than Dravid...riiight. You are holding on to the most ridiculosly stupid argument. Even hick can be called world class.
If a player suffers a slight performance lapse like Miandad did in unfavorable conditions it is acceptable as their performance is still competant. But if some one averages 75 on flat tracks and 20 against quality opposition...in any dictionary..they are not GOOD.
 

full_length

U19 Vice-Captain
I'm not bitter or anything. After a while in sports.com, i started skipping your posts, and those of some others. Anyhow, roy, dont tell me to relax. Like most people around here I do not have much regard for narrowminded people, and you are no exception, no matter how much you polish your particular brand. Lets get out of the generalisations and talk on specifics if that will make things clearer. What is your explanation on the deluded indian fan, so-and-so is not a good captain like most indians etc.?
Maybe you need to look again at yourself before you launch at people like GreatIndia or Mo. They just seem to skip the cloak of decency. Admittedly you're not yet in coon's class (apologies to all those who arent familiar with these names!!) but you've proved to be not much different.

I'd appreciate cricket chat devoid of these.

And on the cricket chat itself, you'd make yourself a lot more agreeable if you did indeed become the first to admit your 'mistakes'. I dont even look at a wrong arguement as a mistake in the sense that you are talking about it. Why the digging in heels and refusing to carry forward discussions? I have found that looking at the opposite point of view helps you to either correct yours, or serves as a confirmatinon of your own beliefs. Just bullishly sticking to the same stand with neither explanation nor willingness to reexamine doesnt help.

Yes, I do admit I have been quite irritated with certain very annoying habits of yours and some others, in the past, of pointing out grammatical flaws/talking about other similarly pointless things, and arrogantly suggesting that people stop discussing just because you've lost your taste for arguement.
But as it turned out, I dont really get much time to even watch all matches let alone chat about cricket- so its all in the past..

Having said so much negative, its almost unfair if i dont mention that I'm aware that you know quite a bit about cricket, and also that your views on Miandad, and other early eighties players are informative and welcomed. Nobody is disputing this.

I am very sure that nobody on this board, or anywhere really harbours any hard feelings over these kind of discussions.
 

full_length

U19 Vice-Captain
scorpio,
I'd take Dravid off that list you made. Rahul did it by himself.
And maybe add Laxman. Nehra yes!
definitely. Also Badani. Only wish he was playing for the team. I really liked that chap very much. He 'belongs' to international cricket. Infact he's probably more capable of someday fitting in well in the test arena from ODIs than Yuvaraj is.

By wearing his heart on his sleeve, and with expressing the utter confidence he has in his players (sometimes in statements like "we have the two best spinners in the world" :) ) he has had an influence on the team as a whole.

Incidentally, I see that you discount performances in India. I dont see why though.. a test match is a test match. If the flat tracks help the Indians i wonder why they dont help opposition, and why no triple has ever been scored on Indian soil, why the others simply dont have quality spinners that can exploit the 'doctored' surfaces (like the green lawn in middle of SCG when Indians tour is merely a natural phenomenon..).

Somehow, performances in England (not only of India, but of any team) is immediately better than in India, and the fact that other teams dont win so much at home is never an issue...

well..whatever. see you chaps soon :) who the heck chats at 3:20 am!!!!!
 

Anil

International Coach
Incidentally, I see that you discount performances in India. I dont see why though.. a test match is a test match. If the flat tracks help the Indians i wonder why they dont help opposition, and why no triple has ever been scored on Indian soil, why the others simply dont have quality spinners that can exploit the 'doctored' surfaces (like the green lawn in middle of SCG when Indians tour is merely a natural phenomenon..).
The reason why Indian performances in India are devalued even by Indians is that the pitches over there aren't what you call "sporting". For example, take the Headingley pitch. It is a fact that none of the pacers from both sides did much on it, but it is again undeniably true that the wicket helped both spinners and pacers and the Indian batsmen proved that with some application and discipline(and dropped catches), they can make a big impact even on a bowler's wicket.

The climate is a big factor in deciding swinging conditions and that is a disadvantage in India. Yet, we can still prepare some wickets even at Ranji level which has something in it for both the batsmen and bowlers(all kinds) and thus encourage the development of both type of bowlers. As far as I know, Mohali is the only pitch(of international standard) which has really something in it for the pacers in India.

The result of predominantly spinner's pitches has been that India produces spinners by the droves and batsmen who can play them in their sleep. They haven't been exactly flat tracks as you said. The tests in India in the past 10 years or so has produced results most of the time. The Indians win most of the time because of their spinners and because the opposition players aren't either that skilled or don't have a clue against spin. The consequences are manyfold.

The Indian batsmen barring the really special ones(Tendulkar, Dravid) are vulnerable against the moving ball, the rising ball and the really fast delivery obviously because they aren't used to them.

The Indian spinners who are lions on the dust bowls at home are caught napping when they play on wickets which are not tailormade for them. Classic example is Kumble.

The pace bowlers, frustrated by unhelpful pitches and conditions are not exactly a confident lot even when they travel. Classic example is the current lot.

You are right about "doctored" pitches though. All countries "doctor" their pitches to suit their bowlers. A green top is as doctored as a dust bowl and it is hypocritical to point out "doctored pitches" only with reference to India.

Also, an away win is valued more highly because the team is playing in alien conditions in front of a largely unsupportive crowd(basically doesn't have what is termed the "home advantage"). To overcome the odds and perform is, I think rightly considered a bigger achievement.
 

full_length

U19 Vice-Captain
Funnily enough, I agree with almost everything you said. A few thoughts:

The reason why Indian performances in India are devalued even by Indians is that the pitches over there aren't what you call "sporting".
I would object to that. Pitches in Ferozshah kotla, Kanpur etc can be bad, but the major venues like Chennai, Mumbai, Mohali, Kolkata are all good sporting tracks.
I think things changed after Ajit Wadekar's term as manager. During his tenure they did restart the old practice of preparing pitches for the home team (that other nations still continue to do). After his tenure, the board has consistently refused to consider the captain's opinion on how a pitch should be prepared.
When a good side has toured, their players have been able to perform. SA beat us at home, with Boje and their batsmen doing very well. Their pacemen didnt do badly either. I wont say much more on the Aus series. All three wickets were sporting. their seamers did well, our spinners did well, the good batsmen did well. That's what a sporting pitch can do!

For example, take the Headingley pitch. It is a fact that none of the pacers from both sides did much on it, but it is again undeniably true that the wicket helped both spinners and pacers and the Indian batsmen proved that with some application and discipline(and dropped catches), they can make a big impact even on a bowler's wicket.
Another point on the lines on the earlier one. The headingly pitch was perfect for the seamers. I dont know if you heard it, but Harbhajan said that the pitch didnt turn much- it didnt help him apart from the bounce (which strangly didnt help Flintoff, Ajit and co. that much). He said the earlier test pitch was much better for spinners, only he didnt bowl well there. I think you may have noticed how a pitch is a 'good bowlers pitch' as long as bowlers are picking wickets and when batsmen get set,it becomes a 'flat track' only to ... ok you get the point.

The climate is a big factor in deciding swinging conditions and that is a disadvantage in India. Yet, we can still prepare some wickets even at Ranji level which has something in it for both the batsmen and bowlers(all kinds) and thus encourage the development of both type of bowlers. As far as I know, Mohali is the only pitch(of international standard) which has really something in it for the pacers in India.
True mostly. On the specific tracks, Mohali is indeed the best for pacemen. Most people are surprised when they hear that the Chennai track is amongst the bouncier ones in India during the first day and second.

The Indian batsmen barring the really special ones(Tendulkar, Dravid) are vulnerable against the moving ball, the rising ball and the really fast delivery obviously because they aren't used to them.
true. i think there's another mental factor to all this. they dont even believe that they can adjust. that has to count against them too.
The result of predominantly spinner's pitches has been that India produces spinners by the droves and batsmen who can play them in their sleep.
True. And so we have batsmen who treat one Mr Warne like a schoolboy, and (along with Lanka) produce the best spinners in the world. South Africa, England and Windies can hardly play nor bowl spin half as good as we can. Just thought that deserved as much a mention as the fact that they produce better pacemen, and batsmen that handle pace than we do.

The Indian spinners who are lions on the dust bowls at home are caught napping when they play on wickets which are not tailormade for them. Classic example is Kumble.
Dont make Kumble a classic case. He's hardly your standard spinner. Spinners in earlier times didnt have much trouble abroad did they? Its still early times for Harbhajan. I dont know if you noticed, but tracks we get abroad have hardly been the kind we can play two spinners, no matter how good. Kumble was established, and so he played by default.
I'd like to mention here how pacemen tend to drop shoulders in India. Somehow Srinath and Akram manage to perform in India. Kapil took half his wickets at home (he wasnt even express pace. He was a 'swing' bowler!). It works both ways. The good ones always managed to perform. We had really top-notch spinners once. they performed abroad. The really good pacemen from abroad do perform in India.

The pace bowlers, frustrated by unhelpful pitches and conditions are not exactly a confident lot even when they travel. Classic example is the current lot.
Accepted. I'd like to pass on something that I have no source for (!):
a pakistani paceman when asked how they managed to produce such great bowlers and developed reverse swing to an art form, answered "well our tracks back home dont help pacemen, so we had to come up with something. Also we need to bowl much faster as it doesnt swing". Just thought it contrasted a little bit for our explanation as to why we dont produce Malcolm Marshalls.

You are right about "doctored" pitches though. All countries "doctor" their pitches to suit their bowlers. A green top is as doctored as a dust bowl and it is hypocritical to point out "doctored pitches" only with reference to India.
On the dot. My point exactly.

Also, an away win is valued more highly because the team is playing in alien conditions in front of a largely unsupportive crowd(basically doesn't have what is termed the "home advantage"). To overcome the odds and perform is, I think rightly considered a bigger achievement.
I grant that. I totally agree with you on this. But I'm saying that you shouldn't devalue a home win. It must be understood that most teams do play half their cricket at home, and dont have half as good a record at home as India does.
 

full_length

U19 Vice-Captain
Oh and just another thing...

Whats your definition of a good sporting track? I thought its one in which the odds are not severely loaded against either species- batsmen and bowlers.

A good example for a nonsporting track would be the one on which Jayasurya made 340. Azhar and sachin could have gone on and on but decided to hit out so they could declare. SL had no such intentions. And the bowlers on either side never had a say.

To me, if Headingly or Chennai can support good quality cricket for five days, they are good tracks. A sporting/non-sporting tag shouldnt have anything to do with whether the track is good for both teams' particular strengths!!
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
Roy you really have a tunnel vision. Anyway let me shoot that argument to pieces too...
You really make me laugh :) You shoot everyone of my arguments to pieces, thats not fair :) I think Socrates once said (someone please correct me if I am wrong), I know more than you; atleast I know that I dont know anything; you dont even know that.

It means buddy...Both of them motivate their players and make them feel comfortable. See..comfortable and relaxed players perform better in case you didnt know.
What the hell! Does Ganguly give the players a bl00dy massage before they go out, which make them feel 'relaxed and comfortable'??
How old r u anyway, this kind of mindless drivel cannot be coming out of a mature individual.

Agarkar has played under 3 captains and he continues to spray like a dickhead he is. Indian bowlers have a tradition of not sticking to a plan. You might see that even now after nearly 5 yrs he still does that. Despite being dropped and all.
Lets examine this carefully...

-If Agarkar has played under 3 captains and you say his results have been bad under all three, and you have also criticised the captaincy of Tendulkar and Azhar, so why did you expect them to have had an influence on Agarkar. As Ganguly is such a good captain, he unlike the other two should have had a positive influence on Agarkar, but it did not happen. So I guess the inference would be that all three sucked as captain?

-You imply that Agarkar is permanently damaged, and has done poorly consistently for the last 5 yrs. Well in Aus 99/00 against the mighty powerhouse that is the Aus batting, he took 11 wkts at 31 in 3 matches. And Ganguly was not the captain. Just to remind you the series before, the same Aus batting had murdered Shoaib, Waqar, Wasim, Azhar and co. And none of the other Indian bowlers left any impression either. And not only did Agarkar get reasonable figures, he bowled very well, admitted by Ian Chappell himself.

He has influenced the cricket of

1. Yuvraj Singh
2. kaif
3. harbhajan
4. Dravid
5. Sehwag
6. Bangar
7. Zaheer

Apart from this he has supported agarkar and nehra too boot.

Steve waugh has the luxury of dropping bowlers who dont stick to a plan. (Kasprowicz, Macgill).While ganguly does not have that luxury.
So if I understand correctly, here is your argument...If any player plays well under Ganguly's captaincy, its because of Ganguly's influence, and any player who doesnt perform well, is because of that player's own doing, and Ganguly has no part to play in it. Thats crap. First of all batsmen cannot be as heavily influenced by captains, as they are in the field doin their thing while the captain is in the dressing room. But bowlers are the ones, heavily influenced by the captain in the field, there is always some encouragement, some advice after every over (after every delivery in the case of the Indian team ;). In any case, are you predicting that Kaif, Laxman, Dravid etc would not have performed as well if the captain was someone else. Its really a weak argument.

Ganguly was never indias second best batsman. (May be in ur view). When he started out AZHAR was still india's second best. We had siddhu too.

Ganguly was second best in one days.
In tests he came 4th after Tendulkar,dravid and Azhar. Get that.
Are you blind? I said...

He was along with Dravid the second best Indian batsman at the time when he became the captain
If you are trying to say that when Ganguly became captain Azhar was better than Ganguly as a batsman then you are mad. And BTW, Sidhu was probably wearing a tie, and sitting in the cozy commentary box by then.

At the time when Ganguly became captain this was the career record of him and Dravid:

-Ganguly - tests - 35 matches, 46 average
- ODI - 142 matches, 43 average

-Dravid - tests - 37 matches, 47 average
- ODI - 125 matches, 37 average

Now on the basis of this if you are unable to see why I said Ganguly along with Dravid was India's second best batsman, then I am not sure what can convince you. You would again try to convolute this unambiguous argument by saying that Ganguly scored more on favorable conditions. Well, just to make you happy I have made an adjustment for that, and although Ganguly's overall record on paper was superior to Dravid (see above), I still said that along with Dravid he was India's second best batsman.

Shall we call VINOD KAMBLI A WORLD CLASS BATSMAN ? He Averages 54..despite sucking against pace. But by yourargument he is better than Dravid...riiight.
This argument over time has become your favorite argument.

Kambli when burst onto the scene was considered a prodigious talent, and he played brilliant innings in his first few matches. Although he still averages 54, his last ten innings were, 28, 27, 0, 18, 6, 0, 0, 40, 19, 9. Obvioulsy a classic case of running out of steam early. This is the reason why 'he is not considered better than Dravid', FYI. If he had scored his test runs spread over more evenly, or his big double hundreds had come recently (with the same overall average), even if they came on docile pitches against average attacks, he would still be in the team. Although its important to bat well against quality attacks, and fast pitches, its not the only thing. The bottom line is how many runs you score, and if you can contribute to your team winning matches, regardless of opposition or venue.

I am not sure if you have heard of Bob Massie. He boasts 31 wkts, in 6 matches at an average of 21. But in his first test he took 16/137 against a good english side, at Lord's. Even became the Wisden Player of the year (I think??), but could never duplicate his performance at the test level again. Hence another case of the 'running out of steam early' phenomena. Just like Kambli. Again if Massie had this (wkts, average)spread evenly over his career he would definetely have had more chances to play. Nirandera Hirwani whom I'm sure you are familiar with is another example.

So, please do me a favor, dont shoot my arguments to pieces, maybe twist them, and turn them to fit your own needs, but dont shoot them to pieces.

On another note, TC if you are reading this, can I copy your avatar?

[Edited on 8/29/02 by royGilchrist]
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
What the hell! Does Ganguly give the players a bl00dy massage before they go out, which make them feel 'relaxed and comfortable'??
How old r u anyway, this kind of mindless drivel cannot be coming out of a mature individual.
Hate is a bad thing mate. You certainly dont appreciate that your attempt to be mature know-it-all has been shot to pieces by me, full-lenght and A_B. But now even the itsy bitsy credibilty you had is getting eroded by rantings like that.

How does he make them relaxed and comfortable ? HERE IS HOW

Harbhajan was noted as a talented offie even in 98. But albeit rough and undisciplined. BEfore the IND_AUS series he was thrown out of cricket camp coz of indiscipline. But ganguly stood up for him and insisted he be played. Rest is history.

WHy did he perform so well suddenly ? Because he had the support and confidence of his captain.

Yuuraj: After a senstational start..fell by the wayside. Resurrected entirely thx for ganguly and his staunch support notwithstanding allegations of corruption. Results are their to see.

WHy did he perform so well suddenly ? Because he had the support and confidence of his captain.

Nehra: Labelled lazy and not good after the south african series. Dumped. Ganguly was indignant and gave a lot of support by voicing his opinion in the media and having him back immediately after the IND_ENG series. Still gives him excellent support despite poor performance.

Kaif: Labelled too technical and slow for oneday. But for the last 3 series was given a real extended run so that he can play well...

Agarkar: Even though he doesnt deserve it anymore has had ganguly unflinching support

Zaheer: Every one knows how much ganguly supports him. ( may be u dont...but then u dont know a lot of things)

Dravid: Grt praise from Ganguly for his deputy...the reuslts are there to see...dravid is now really rising to the occasion. A significant part of the credit to ganguly.

I can go on all day.
Ganguly has the balls to criticize even sachin after he did after the Loss against SL in sharjah. He stands up for his players against the selectors and actually wins the battles

Steve waugh was praised during the 99 world cup that he makes his teammates write poems during morning meetings. The idea was to make them jell together more. Ganguly unites them by sheer passion. Nasser by coaxing and sheer aggression. TO EVERY ONE THIER OWN WAY.

BTW we have a Physio to give massages.

So next time , before you spout arguments out of your rear end think. Your utter desire to go one-up on me makes you look stupid and ur dream wont happen until you actually engage brain and read facts before posting.
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
Regarding Agarkar:

Agarkar as a bowler is nippy, sharp and can move the ball both ways. The trouble is with his head. He is not disciplined enough and gets carried away. I have never doubted if he has the talent. MY argument is he has had enough oppurtunities.

Well everyone knows that he performed well in australia. The trouble is he is never consistent enough. THe only reason he still plays is coz there is no replacement.

So if I understand correctly, here is your argument...If any player plays well under Ganguly's captaincy, its because of Ganguly's influence, and any player who doesnt perform well, is because of that player's own doing, and Ganguly has no part to play in it. Thats crap. First of all batsmen cannot be as heavily influenced by captains, as they are in the field doin their thing while the captain is in the dressing room. But bowlers are the ones, heavily influenced by the captain in the field, there is always some encouragement, some advice after every over (after every delivery in the case of the Indian team . In any case, are you predicting that Kaif, Laxman, Dravid etc would not have performed as well if the captain was someone else. Its really a weak argument.
A captain can only influence a player to a certain extent. I have already explained how he supported them. Trouble is some like HARB, KAIF, YUVRAJ,NEHRA react positively. Some just dont learn. AGARKAR, and a lesser extent SRINATH never had enough discipline to perform consistently.

ONLY REASON AGARKER STILL PLAYS IS COZ SRINATH RETIRED AND THERE IS NO REPLACEMENT AND NEHRA SUCKED EVEN WORSER IN ENGLAND. GET IT

Ilogical stuff posted by Roy abt AZHAR, SIddhu and Ganguly..
When you look up stats abt players you have no idea abt or about matches you havent seen..atleast read them clearly and make sure you understand them.

Until 1998 SIDDHU Was still a part of indian team and a very highly performing player.
Untill 1999 AZHAR WAS A PART and NUMBER 2 BATSMAN OF INDIAN TEAM. His last match was also SACHIN LAST AS CAPTAIN. THen ganguly took over and MATCH FIXING CAME TO FORE.

Siddhu, AZhar were men won drew and won matches for india against tougher opposition in TESTS.
Dravid was man who alwys got 50's till 99. He did make a few hundreds but not too many till 2000.
Ganguly Never played well against tough opposition and made runs against mediocre bowling until recently.

NO sane person would call them the SECOND BEST. ( Does that make u insane ?)

Regarding the stats you posted:

Dravids place was not a certainty in onedays till Azhar retired though he played a lot of matches. He was alyws criticized as too slow for onedays. THE recent decision to make him a keeper was to accomodate him.
IN tests he was criticzed that he alwys fails after makin a fifty. He is finally turnin the corner now. But his consistency was a big factor and it can be argued that he was india's second best with AZHAR.
In Onedays he was alwys fighting for his place and was dropped twice.

Ganguly was only second best in onedays along with Azhar. But in tests he was just a flat track bully. Something a simplistic, non-match watcher like you will never understand. Ask any indian fan with a grasp of things and a 3 DIGIT IQ if ganguly was a better batsman than Azhar in 96,97,98 and 99.

Azhar for all his failings still won enough matches and fought in a few during those periods. Calcutta, kanpur and durban are all knocks where he shined. List me ganguly's acheivements?

Ganguly's first major contribution in a tough or hard match after is debut series was against SL when he made 98.
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
Here is a gem that you posted.The funniest and stupidest thing i have ever read any one post.

Although its important to bat well against quality attacks, and fast pitches, its not the only thing. The bottom line is how many runs you score, and if you can contribute to your team winning matches, regardless of opposition or venue.
Ability to perform against is quality attacks and hostile environments is the only thing. Any flat track bully can perform against mediocre bowling and dead wickets...but IT TAKES REAL SKILL TO PERFORM IN TOUGH SITUATIONS

That is why STEVE WAUGH despite averaging 8 runs less than SACHIN is considered almost his equal.

That is why GR VISHWANATH despite a low 40's average is considered a all time grt.

That is why JAYASURIYA despite a triple century and a Ave of almost 40 is consiidered as a flat track bully and lackin real class.

That is why ATherton with a average of 37 is considered one of the best openers.

That is why VISHWANATHS 97* is considered one of the best knocks ever ( MADE AGAINST A FIRE BREATHING ANDY ROBERTS)

That is why ATHERTONS 185* made against donald at his best is respected.

That is why JAYASURIYA's and MAHANAMA's 340 and 225 are not considered as grt knocks coz they were made against a weak bowling and dead pitch..


Buddy your hate and desire to show me up is driving you to post utter crap and insensible stuff. Put that to the side and come with some thing sane. Everyone makes a mistake but atleast learn from it.

You posted stuff like this before. After me and A_B showed you up...aftger you were cornered you cried out for support hoping BIGVINCE and T_C would bail you. But being sensible ppl they refrained from it. I guess we know who is the child here..hehe.

Lets see what you got in reply now..
 

royGilchrist

State 12th Man
Scorpio,

You are just not reading what I wrote.

In my last post, for the second time I clarified that initially I had clearly said Ganguly was the second best indian batsman at the time
when he took over captaincy in 99/00.


At that time Sidhu had retired, and Azhar was well past his prime and not the third best test player in India. Now do you understand?

The rest of the stuff, is the same, you keep coming up with vague, unrelated stats for unrelated examples. You can give a 100 examples if its not related to the issue at hand its no point.

Ganguly's support for his players, buddy every player is supported by his captain obvioulsy otherwise he wont be in the team. Ganguly hasnt done anything that other captains wont have done, he encourages players just like the rest. The only question is if his influence makes players better than they would be under other captains. I mean Nehra, Agarkar, Harb, Laxman, would have performed roughly the same under any captain.

AB and FL were writing in your favor because I called the Indian fans deluded, and they took it personally and were venting their anger in response. In hindsight perhaps I should have more diplomatic and political correct, but I still feel that way. BTW, Pak fans are deluded too, thinking their team is the most talented and on their day they can beat anyone. Thats bull**** as well. On its day any team can beat any other team. Pak bowling is also suppose to be a powerhouse but if they dont perform then its useless, when it counts the most they dont perform. SA tour would be a big test, but last time in Aus the Pak bowling attack were shown what they are really made of.

Great, now I guess more flames would be flying and Pak fans would start cornering me, but I post what I think is right. The problem is that a team's supporters due to their unconditional support for the team do not see the team's weaknesses or shortcomings.
 

scorpio

U19 Cricketer
Buddy...i do read your posts. Well u certainly are knowledgable but not as much as u think you are..


In my last post, for the second time I clarified that initially I had clearly said Ganguly was the second best indian batsman at the time
when he took over captaincy in 99/00.

At that time Sidhu had retired, and Azhar was well past his prime and not the third best test player in India. Now do you understand?
I got it loud and clear bud. But let me ask you a question.

Would you rate a batsman who got his runs against

Bangladesh
NZ (At home)
SL
ZIMB

as opposed to one who scores against all the above..as well as

AUS
SA
WA
PAK.

huh ?

Ganguly was at best third when he took over in tests...


The rest of the stuff, is the same, you keep coming up with vague, unrelated stats for unrelated examples. You can give a 100 examples if its not related to the issue at hand its no point.
SHow me where ?

Ganguly's support for his players, buddy every player is supported by his captain obvioulsy otherwise he wont be in the team.
Murali karthik, bangar, ramesh, Joshi, robin singh, Mohanty, Youhannan....may have an issue with that mate. They got dumped despite performing well and playin for a while..


Ganguly hasnt done anything that other captains wont have done, he encourages players just like the rest. The only question is if his influence makes players better than they would be under other captains. I mean Nehra, Agarkar, Harb, Laxman, would have performed roughly the same under any captain.
you try to "mean" a lot things...but usually it is illogical.

Ganguly has done a lot of things others havent done.

1. he has won twice the number of away tests than any other captain
2. He has won grudging respect from his peers as a captain
3. he has stood up to the Board for players and come up victorius.

I have listed a few players who publicily state and acknowledge that ganguly was a major factor behind their succes..

Show me how many stated so abt Azhar
Show me how many stated so abt Tendulkar


The only deluded one around is one MR Roygilchrist. You seem think that we are deluded...but ur arguments never address any issue. You dont need to be politically correct...just be correct.
 

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