Most unlikely Test cricketers

[Richard]

That's a new one to me...

Is it?
Would you seriously say Kumble spins it anywhere near as much as most wristspinners?

 

[Richard]

oh i dont doubt that those 2 were unorthodox, but to call dharmasena unorthodox because he bowled flatter than a rubbish finger spinner is pushing it. fact is that dharmasena was a finger spinner who was competent in ODI cricket by anyones standard, and just because it happens to disprove your theory doesnt make him unorthodox.

Yes, it does. I always liked Dharmasena, and frankly it baffles me why he's not in the picture at present. Quite clearly, the secret of his success is that he bowls faster and flatter (as Kumble used to) than pretty much any fingerspinner, thereby giving batsmen far less time to come down the pitch, or to rock back.

so 4 bowlers in the last decade who have disproved your theory. could it be that good finger spinners are extremely useful in ODI cricket? and not long ago you were claiming that there has never ever been a finger spinner who has been successful for a consistent period of time in ODI cricket. you miss the point completely, whether or not you use your fingers to turn the ball in an orthodox or unorthodox manner is not relevant. what is relevant though is that for any spinner to be extremely successful in ODI cricket, he needs to be extremely skilled.

Err, yes.
When, exactly, did I say otherwise?
I've certainly never said "there's never been a fingerspinner who's been consistently successful in ODIs" - or if those words were posted, I certainly didn't mean them. Clearly, Saqlain, Harbhajan, Dharmasena and the pre-1999\2000 Kumble have all been good ODI bowlers, and I've always rated them as such. They are not, however, conventional fingerspinners, any of them.

 

[Tomm NCCC]

Rob Key, didnt know there was a jersey big enough for him, he smokes alot aswell you know

 

[Richard]

Well, sadly so do lots and lots.

 

[Pothas]

Is it?
Would you seriously say Kumble spins it anywhere near as much as most wristspinners?

He clearly does not but that doesnt make him a fingerspinner does it?

 

[Richard]

Why not?
He uses his wrist very little when spinning the ball.

 

[Pothas]

just because you dont do something doesnt make you automaticaly do something else

 

[vic_orthdox]

Why not?
He uses his wrist very little when spinning the ball.

He shapes the ball and the rotations he puts on it a lot more with his wrists than he does with his fingers.

 

[Richard]

Maybe these days he uses his wrists a bit more, but still nowhere near as much as Warne, Murali, Mushtaq, MacGill, etc.

 

[Richard]

just because you dont do something doesnt make you automaticaly do something else

Well... if you don't spin it with your wrists you either don't spin it at all or you spin it with your fingers.
And Kumble does spin it - a bit, just not that much.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

Leon Garrick? The WI opener who played a solitary test match against SA in 00/01 known better for his 425 run opening stand with chris gayle in domestic cricket. Even despite not getting too many chances cant say he didnt look out of depth at the international level.

He was very much a Baugh-esque batsman. Favoured the cut shot heavily. Outstanding domestic batsman, but too attack-minded to succeed at the highest level. That said, I consider him to have been better than Baugh.

 

[Pothas]

Well... if you don't spin it with your wrists you either don't spin it at all or you spin it with your fingers.
And Kumble does spin it - a bit, just not that much.

Yes and he uses his wrist because he is a wrist spinner

 

[C_C]

i would say that Kumble most definately is a wrist spinner. He's not a massive mover of the ball in the Murali-Warne-Gupte league but he can move the ball as much as Harbhajan or Kaneria if he wants to. He just favours little movement over lot of movement (similar to McGrath). However,Kumble's repertoire is pretty complete and his deliveries like top spinners, googlies, etc. are pretty good and he uses his wrists massively for those.

 

[Richard]

Kaneria clearly revs it plenty more than either Harbhajan or Kumble.
Yes, Kumble does use his wrists to bowl the Flippers, and to a lesser extent the Googlies - but he still doesn't turn either Leg-Break or Googly much on a non-turning pitch. Hence he's, even now, more of a fingerspinner than a wristspinner.

 

[C_C]

Kaneria clearly revs it plenty more than either Harbhajan or Kumble.
Yes, Kumble does use his wrists to bowl the Flippers, and to a lesser extent the Googlies - but he still doesn't turn either Leg-Break or Googly much on a non-turning pitch. Hence he's, even now, more of a fingerspinner than a wristspinner.

Doesnt turn much doesnt equate to fingerspinner- he still bowls with a lot of wrist involved.

 

[thierry henry]

In tests against Australia, once again on unresponsive surfaces, he's been miles clear of every other New Zealand bowler, and singlehandedly kept them in the contest at times, by at least bowling economically (to everybody but Gilchrist, anyway) and picking up the odd wicket.

How the hell has Vettori kept NZ in the contest against Australia in any test since 1999/2000. Picking up wickets at 35 or 40 apiece while your teammates get slaughtered doesn't make much of a difference.

In the home series in 2004/05 James Franklin's performance was at least as good as anything Vettori has done against Australia in recent times.

Apart from that Vettori has been (overall, save for occasional useful performances) a liability or a non-bowler in tests against proper opposition for many years. Although it does seem that he *might* be working towards pre-2000 form. I still expect him to be a non-contributor against South Africa but could possibly be proved wrong.

 

[Richard]

Doesnt turn much doesnt equate to fingerspinner- he still bowls with a lot of wrist involved.

Bearing in mind we're referring principally to 1990-1999 - he didn't bowl with a tremendous amount of wrist in his Googly or Leg-Break, and hence he wasn't credible as a wristspinner, and was more credible as a fingerspinner.
Same way it's total nonsense to call Murali a fingerspinner.

 

[Goughy]

Bearing in mind we're referring principally to 1990-1999 - he didn't bowl with a tremendous amount of wrist in his Googly or Leg-Break, and hence he wasn't credible as a wristspinner, and was more credible as a fingerspinner.
Same way it's total nonsense to call Murali a fingerspinner.

They are established cricketing terms that you are just tearing apart because you want to.
Kumble = Wrist spinner
Murali = Finger spinner

Deal with it and get over it. They are facts given the way the terms are used in cricketing circles.

You may not like it, you may even have a case why they may not fit the traditional roles (I dont think you do, but hey) but this is a redundant argument as the terms are fixed.

 

[Richard]

No term is fixed.
Murali is absolutely no way a fingerspinner. Anyone who argues he is is a fool in the extreme.
Wrist and fingerspinner are terms which are precisely designed to go past the folly of "off-spinner" and "leg-spinner", terms which are flexible exactly like spin bowling.