His career quality is also disproportionately warped by how well he finished his career. He went sub 28 average in 5 of his 6 last years, something he'd only managed in 1 of his first 6. It's okay for people to hold a changing opinion of his quality through his career, because he did change in quality. He's added something like 25% to his career wickets in the last 18 months at an amazing average. You can't just discard this when assessing his overall career. The past 18 months look more like Malcom Marshall than Stuart Broad. But we are comparing him to Broad, not Marshall.
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Morne Morkel vs Stuart Broad: Who's the better fast bowler?
- Thread starter Tec15
- Start date
Kirkut
International Regular
It was as good or even better! The Edgbaston crowd was unreal though, the support Freddie Flintoff got was a spectacle. It's based on that performance he has managed to play 81 tests in spite of a bowling average of 36.
marc71178
Eyes not spreadsheets
How is taking 43 balls to dismiss a player who ended up scoring 45 better then getting him out for a 5 ball duck?
MW1304
Cricketer Of The Year
Not really what I'm saying. Changing your opinion based on new evidence should be encouraged but this has been a complete u-turn based almost entirely on the new evidence and not what came before it. Even during the England series last summer there was chatter from all corners about Morkel's wasted potential, how disappointing a career he'd had relative to his skillset, and suddenly less than a year later fresh from retirement he's on the verge of being ATG? That just seems strange to me.
The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but I definitely feel there's too many hot takes coming off his retirement at the moment. Which is not a new phenomenon tbf, happens in most of these cases. One of the sharper turns in consensus I've seen though.
akilana
State Captain
Wasted potential talk often comes up when Broad bowls too. WHen SA toured England in 2012, the thread was filled with what to do with Broad. It is the same with many England tour threads. Both of them of them are wasted potential truth be told. If Morkel is a wasted potential that’s fine but he still ended up with better record than Broad. What does it say about Broad. Nobody around here ever claimed him to be ATG or on the verge of being one. I don’t know if you are making this up for effect... He still had a fine career and can be judged fairely on his achivements.
MW1304
Cricketer Of The Year
Thought you were referring to him as borderline ATG, now realise you're referring to Philander. Regardless there's a lot of fawning.
I haven't even mentioned Broad in comparison yet tbh. Things have changed drastically in a year though, not many would have put Morkel ahead of Broad before last summer. If you think enough has happened to change that then fair enough I guess, but I definitely think you can read too much into how their averages have switched.
I haven't even mentioned Broad in comparison yet tbh. Things have changed drastically in a year though, not many would have put Morkel ahead of Broad before last summer. If you think enough has happened to change that then fair enough I guess, but I definitely think you can read too much into how their averages have switched.
Daemon
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Kirkut: Ishant's spell was an EXTENDED version of Flintoff's over to Ponting
marc: No he took too long to dismiss him
Borges
International Regular
This argument cuts both ways. Its much easier for the backup seamer to bowl well after the opposition has already been mauled by the two front line bowlers.
May be it is not a coincidence that this dramatic turn-around in Morkel's career started around the time that Philander debuted.
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akilana
State Captain
So how can you hold the doesn’t run through side argument against Morkel. He’s presented with a different challenge.
Philander debuted in 2011 so it was when Morkel’s dramatic turn around started? You are just making things up. He always bowled the same way and his average was fairly consistent throughout his career.
OverratedSanity
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It's preference I guess since their major stats (average, wpm, sr) are relatively close. But Broad's ability to run through an opposition is miles ahead of Morkel and I think that's just far more valuable to winning test matches than what Morkel does.
Broads ability to run through sides is exaggerated. He has 16 5 wicket hauls compared to Morkel's 8. Normalising for the 35% difference in number of matches played, this is just over 5 additional 5 wicket hauls across over 200 innings. A 5 wicket haul every 50 or so innings. The difference in incisiveness between the RSA and England attacks would definitely account for this difference- the teams broad played for probably strike 10% slower then the ones Morkel played for. Even if this were not the case, people are selecting him as the superior bowler for being better in 2% of innings bowled when he is the statistically inferior bowler over 98%.
Select 10 wicket hauls instead of 5 and you get a very similar result- Broad only has 2. Select 4 wicket hauls and Morkel actually has more despite fewer matches played.
I can think of a couple of reasons to believe Broad is better, but the one most people are selecting is wrong. A good performance every 50 innings doesn't substantially increase your quality as a bowler. It increases your memorability, which causes a skewed perception on quality.
Select 10 wicket hauls instead of 5 and you get a very similar result- Broad only has 2. Select 4 wicket hauls and Morkel actually has more despite fewer matches played.
I can think of a couple of reasons to believe Broad is better, but the one most people are selecting is wrong. A good performance every 50 innings doesn't substantially increase your quality as a bowler. It increases your memorability, which causes a skewed perception on quality.
OverratedSanity
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Nah, it's not just the number of 5fers, it's his sudden out of the blue god-mode spells where he takes 4-5 wickets in the space of 3 overs or something. Think Broad holds the record for most one-spell 5fers ever, or atleast is right up there. Some of his best spells, the 8fer against Aus, the series winning 6fer against SA, basically his whole series vs India in 2011, especially the one spell with the hattrick which basically sealed the series... those are some ridiculous performances. At his best he is up there with some of the best ever, I don't think that's an exaggeration. It's just that in between his best spells he has a lot of dry stretches.
Think there was a stats analysis on cricinfo which showed the statistics from his best 20% spells or something were much better than what you'd expect from a bowler with an average of 29.
Think there was a stats analysis on cricinfo which showed the statistics from his best 20% spells or something were much better than what you'd expect from a bowler with an average of 29.
Starfighter
Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
No, it's not exaggerated. 11 of those sixteen five-fors were six wickets or more, compared to only 1 for Morkel and five for Anderson. He's almost single handedly bowled sides out for under 100 three times, something that is very rare these days, and has three seven-fors (Dale Steyn has one). And unlike Morkel, none of the were Zimbabwe. 'Only two ten wicket hauls'. It's not that easy taking ten wicket hauls (or eleven in Broad's case) , he's taken eight in a match nine times as opposed to Morkel's two, and Morkel has never taken ten. Considering how rare five-fors are you are silly saying that five more across the same number of innings is not noteworthy. You wouldn't begrudge a batsman who had made seven or eight more centuries than another over the same time (going by the respective frequencies of centuries and five-fors). The four wicket haul count doesn't include five fors (the fifties thing so passionately debated on here). Broad has taken four or more wickets in an innings 31 times opposed to Morkel's 26, and has taken more wickets on average in those four plus innings. The characterisation of Morkel as consistent and Broad as mercurial is well backed up by their career performances.
OverratedSanity
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Senile Sentry
International Debutant
On second thoughts I think I might have let my dislike for Broad cloud my judgement a bit in this comparison. There is also the issue that Broad has tapered off slightly off late whereas Morkel has enjoyed arguably his best phase in the last 4 years or so.
Broad definitely had a higher workload than Morkel did. He has bowled 45% more deliveries in his career than Morkel did and also bowled on an average 10% more deliveries per innings as well.
Also is the fact that Broad had to act a strike bowler demonstrated by the fact that he opened the bowling attack in 82% of the total innings he played for England. Morkel shared the new ball duties in just 45% of the innings he played for SA. Morkel's record while opening the bowling is hardly rash but it is obvious he enjoyed the advantage of an opposition already "softened" by his much more illustrious strike bowlers - Steyn and Philander for most of his career. An advantage Broad didn't have.
Broad definitely had a higher workload than Morkel did. He has bowled 45% more deliveries in his career than Morkel did and also bowled on an average 10% more deliveries per innings as well.
Also is the fact that Broad had to act a strike bowler demonstrated by the fact that he opened the bowling attack in 82% of the total innings he played for England. Morkel shared the new ball duties in just 45% of the innings he played for SA. Morkel's record while opening the bowling is hardly rash but it is obvious he enjoyed the advantage of an opposition already "softened" by his much more illustrious strike bowlers - Steyn and Philander for most of his career. An advantage Broad didn't have.