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Lillie VS Hadlee

Smudge

Hall of Fame Member
SJS said:
SENSATIONAL DISCLOSURE

Particularly since Viv Richards didnt play in New Zealand till 7 years later in 1986-87 !!

Now this is the limit. Kiwis take the cake. Umpires cheat years in advance.
:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

Actually, Richards didn't have a fun time with NZ umpires in 1986/87. He and Fred Goodall (the one who Colin Croft ran into in 1979/80) had a running battle throughout the 1986/87 story which is well documented in the Crowe brothers' book "The Crowe Style" released after that tour.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
A great theory has been propounded here. It is worth exploring.

If a player performs better than another against a particular team, a particular country, a particular set of conditions, then his is a better player. End of Story !!

Great. Makes life so easy for everyone. now all cricketing debates of the last one hundred odd years will be settled in a jiffy. :D I was delighted.

I decided to immediately use this fantastic concept to settle the biggest raging controversy of recent times.

Who is better : Warne or Murali

I decided to take their respective figures , in the most trying of circumstances, namely in India, and to make sure I was on the right track and to see that there was no big variation between leg spinners and off spinners etc, i decided to throw in another 30 odd spinners of all varieties and from all countries.

I also decided to leave out the Indian spinners. Naturally. They had the undue advantage of home grounds and wickets, home crowds, home umpires and most important of all they were always faced with clueless visiting batsmen. I was smart. I left out the Bedis, Prasannas and Kumbles. :naughty:

I also realised that by chosing figures in India I had not only put my spinners to the sternest of tests but had also in one stroke eliminated the 'unprofessional' lot of earlier times when Bradman and companied made runs by the hundreds against useless bowlers and Barnes and company took cheap wickets against useless batsmen. If you find this logic contradictory go and stuff yourself :p

I took all the figures of these 36 spinners including our two heroes and threw them in the blender fully confident that I was going to get a list with these two in the first two spots, naturally, but most important of all I would be able to inform the whole cricketing world, which of them was the greater bowler. Ha ha. I was on the threshold of a big scoop.:sneaky2:

I gave a few big whirls to the mixer and then spread out the fruit of my labour.

Horror of indescribable horrors
:shocking:

What the hell was this ? The list did not contain our heroes. They had vanished. On second and then third look I found them.

Right at the bottom. The last two in the list of 36 spinners. :-O

Here it is for you to cry over :crybaby:

Rank Player Country Type Average
1 Salim Malik Pak off 7
2 Clarkk Aus Left Arm 7.3
2 Howarth Hedley NZL Left arm 18.17
3 Benaud Aus Leg 18.38
4 Mallet Aus Off 19.11
5 Adams SAF Left arm 20.29
6 Saqlain Pak Off 20.96
7 Gibbs Win Off 23.38
8 Vievers Aus Off 24.45
9 Simpson Aus Leg 25.17
10 Ian Johnson Aus Off 26
11 Wasim Raja Pak Leg 26.29
12 Underwood Eng Left arm 26.52
13 Qadir Pak Leg 26.82
14 Titmus Eng Off 27.67
15 David Allan Eng Off 27.76
16 Lock Eng Left arm 28.55
17 Matthews Greg Aus Off 29.07
18 Holford Win Leg 32.4
19 Haseeb Ahsan Pak Off 32.67
20 Giles Eng Left arm 33
21 Iqbal Qasim Pak Left arm 33.86
22 Gifford Eng Left arm 34.33
23 Gleeson Aus Leg 34.7
24 Tauseef Pak Off 35.06
25 Afridi Pak Leg 36.33
26 Intikhab Alam Pak Leg 36.8
27 Pollard NZL Off 37.2
28 Mushatq A Pak Leg 37.5
29 Bruce Yardley Aus off 38.1
30 Pocock Eng Off 39.44
31 Bryan Yuile NZL Left arm 40.43
33 Hooper Win Off 40.8
34 Bracewell NZL Off 41.5
35 Warne Aus Leg 43.12
36 Murali SRL Off 48.73

Well I am really heartbroken. My heroes are trampled to the ground. But I have one satisfaction in it all, i have shown to the whole cricketing fraternity which of the two greats, sorry, which of the two ordinary spinners, Warne and Murali, is less ordinary !!

Statistics triumph and the scoreboard is not an ass. :horse:

PS. What will happen to all those who have included these two 'unworthies' in their all time great list. Or to our cricketing pundit who has included one of them in his Australian side of all time. There are are several Australians above the now discredited Shane !!

What will he do, disown Shane or disown his earth shattering hypothesis on which my research is based. I pray it is the former. If he comes with a new theory, I will grey some more :huh:
 
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Deja moo

International Captain
Actually I dont think that is the theory C_C has been propounding at all. I dont think he wanted anyone to look at a players stats against any one particular country only.
 

C_C

International Captain
As usual, SJS hides behind his limmerick and twisting of words.

Snide remakrs for comments i've already retracted, idiotic conclusions from what i've said etc etc.

If you think that i said this:
If a player performs better than another against a particular team, a particular country, a particular set of conditions, then his is a better player. End of Story !!
you better get your head checked and take an ESL course pronto for you missed the entire frickin point i am making.

I believe in evaluating relevant stats comprehensively to determine who is a better batsman/bowler/allrounder etc. Its the aggregate that matters to me and not one particular field.
Ofcourse, you are the blind believer in what some hotshot said instead of engaging your brain so i am not surprised.
Maybe your perspective rates opinions higher than facts but not mine.

Ofcourse, with yuor half-baked rhetorics and fact-twisting, you can prance around but that doesnt impress me one tiny bit.

You can keep listening to your 'experts'. I will listen to FACTS instead. TYVM.

PS: you conviniently ducked my previous question addressed to you. You slated me in the past for making comments about crickters i have not seen extensively.
Well you failed to tell me that outta 100 cricketers who came up with that arbitary list, how many have seen Barnes and the most recent name mentioned. Plus what is the demographics of those 100 cricketers.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Deja moo said:
Actually I dont think that is the theory C_C has been propounding at all. I dont think he wanted anyone to look at a players stats against any one particular country only.
I dont care if bradman and 20 other alltime greats say you are the greatest player of pace bowling but if you average 25.00 against the WI four prong and some other dude averages 55.00, he is better. End of story.
 

C_C

International Captain
I dont care if bradman and 20 other alltime greats say you are the greatest player of pace bowling but if you average 25.00 against the WI four prong and some other dude averages 55.00, he is better. End of story.
Yes. I said PACE bowling.
The WI four prong was the best pace bowling unit ever fielded by a nation and thus the mention.
That has nothing to DO with playing in west indies or India.
And notice i equated having a vastly superior average against the WI four prong to being a better player of PACE...not overall.

As usual, you either miss the point or completely twist it.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Sure. The same can be used for a bowler. Indians are clearly the best players of spin (want to challenge that ??) and so why not use the same logic and compare spinners on the basis of their performance against those who play spin the best ??

Cool down and think :D
 

C_C

International Captain
Sure. The same can be used for a bowler. Indians are clearly the best players of spin (want to challenge that ??) and so why not use the same logic and compare spinners on the basis of their performance against those who play spin the best ??
Because this is not a direct two-way flip.
How well you play pace can be guaged by how well you do against top notch pacers.
But how good of a spinner you are(which is equivalent of how good of a batsman you are) has a lot of other variables.
Not to mention, i said the WI four-prong...ie, i set a limiter for eras and time periods etc etc.
Your list doesnt do that but incoproprates everyone who's bowled in india against many different indian sides.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
What I am doing is ridiculing the notion that any one criteria like this can be used to guage acknowledged great players. So I made a spoof which takes off on the , according to me, ridiculous arguments being propounded.

as in every spoof and satire, there is an element of exaggeration and overstatement which is what makes it satirical !! :p :p
 

C_C

International Captain
What I am doing is ridiculing the notion that any one criteria like this can be used to guage acknowledged great players.
who said anything about any one criteria ?
I've presented more than one criteria and all that i've been arguing is that in the aggregate picture, Lillee is inferior to Hadlee/Marshall/Ambrose/McGrath.

The entire debate with T_C was if one particular criteria has an impact or not.

But i didnt base the comment that lillee is inferior to hadlee on only one criteria.
 

Scallywag

Banned
C_C said:
who said anything about any one criteria ?
I've presented more than one criteria and all that i've been arguing is that in the aggregate picture, Lillee is inferior to Hadlee/Marshall/Ambrose/McGrath.

The entire debate with T_C was if one particular criteria has an impact or not.

But i didnt base the comment that lillee is inferior to hadlee on only one criteria.
But a moment ago you said Fredericks was a better batsman than Hayden based on one innings at the WACA even though he did nothing in the last 4 tests.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
SJS said:
That we will say is understandable. Now Sobers was next with 95 votes. Clearly 95 % people felt he was one of the five greatest cricketers of all time but its important to note that 5% DID NOT THINK SO !!
Sobers got 90 votes.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
marc71178 said:
So why those cut offs and not something smaller then?
Because in 30 overs the bowler has had time to turn things around after the batsman have taken to him, and 30 overs at 3.3 an over for few wickets is a genuine off day. Atherton says Warne is better because he has less off days and can turn things around when they are going against him. Those figures prove him to be wrong.
 

FaaipDeOiad

Hall of Fame Member
Scallywag said:
wheres Clarke?
Fair point. I believe Clarke, with his magnificent average of 1.50 in the harshest of conditions against the greatest players of spin the world has ever seen, has proven himself undoubtedly to be the best spin bowler the world has ever seen. Furthermore, off spin is undoubtedly the greater of the spinning arts, particularly left-arm spin.
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
SJS said:
If a player performs better than another against a particular team, a particular country, a particular set of conditions, then his is a better player. End of Story !!
That is a very narrow minded view. If Hadlee outperformed Lillee against 4 of the 5 teams they both played against, and you just analysed their performances against the team Lillee did well against, your narrow minded investigation would conclude Lillee is superior.

It should read "If a player performs better against nearly all teams and in nearly all circumstances, then he is a better player. End of story !!"
 
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