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Kapil Dev vs Gordon Greenidge

Dev vs Greenidge

  • Total voters
    20
Johan

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
I'll have to put you on ignore for Greenidge>Compton, no other alternative, sorry lad I'll miss you :(
 
Johan

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Now regarding Greenidge, I did not want to bring it up but there's really no reason he is decisively better than even David Gower, I often went into depth on why Gooch is equal to Gordon but never about David, but on David. RPI in brackets.

Career averages and Run-Per-Inning

Gower: 44.25 (40.15)
Greenidge: 44.72 (40.85)

Greenidge is slightly ahead here, but here comes the catch, Greenidge didn't have to play the West Indies, Gower did and therefore the bowling unit of the time was dodged and believe me during the 1980s there was an immense gap between England and West Indies in bowling, The Carribean Unit averaged 25 while the English unit averaged 35, India was horrible and they were at 36 so overall Greenidge had a huge advantage over Gower, what does Gower average minus the West Indies?

Gower: 46.90 (42.60)

clearly, Gordon falls backwards here, and this is without World Series Cricket, if that is included Gower would have an edge in pure direct statistics, no need to remove West Indies.

Overseas

Gordon: 42.22 (39.5)
Gower: 46.06 (41.96)

Gower also did well in West Indies, only failed against them at home wickets, and it doesn't take a genius to realise Gower had harder home wickets than Greenidge did.

Asia

Gordon: 36.23 (34.22)
Gower: 56.90 (47.41)

Gordon had tougher pitches in Asia but Gower was too amazing to not be given the advantage.

In Australia

Gordon: 30.97 (29.03)
Gower: 44.49 (40.53)

Gordon was amazing in England but Gower averaged 43 in West Indies which given the bowling order was very good too, Gower didn't get games in New Zealand, only 4 innings. Gower did bash Hadlee at home in swing and seam friendly conditions against dukes though

Worst Countries with decent sample

Gordon
Pakistan (17.27)
Australia (30.97)

Gower
India (37.20)

Against common opponents

vs Australia
David Gower averages 4 points higher, he averages 44.8, Gordon 40.7

vs New Zealand
Gordon Greenidge averages 5 points higher, he averaged 55, Gower 50

vs Pakistan
David Gower averages 18 points more, He averaged 49, Greenidge did 31

vs India
Gordon Greenidge averages 3 points more, He averaged 47, Gower did 44.

So Gower did mininum of 44.8 against all of their mutual opponents, Greenidge barely over 40 against Australia and 31 against Pakistan, also has a bogey country in Pakistan.

Now Gordon did get some very difficult pitches in Pakistan but that's no excuse to average 17, Haynes got the same and did mid 30s, Viv did well too, Richardson got the same pitches and did 31 too.

Now, against common opponents...

Gower: 46.28 (42.30)
Gordon: 42.60 (38.20)

Greenidge gets opener boost, Gower gets boost for carrying a pretty weak batting after Boycott went away and he was lesser anyway for most of Gower's career. Gower averages 47 to Greenidge's 44 once Windies is removed, has a superior away record, no real bogey country and so forth, and had good output in West Indies on top.

Forget Compton, that's a different league, is there anything objective that makes Greenidge superior to even David Gower? This is World Series Cricket

Greenidge: 43.74 (39.96)

his average in World Series Cricket when playing in Australia was 37, in West Indies against a Lillee amp Australia was..31, also another good point there, Gordon never had to play a Lillee led Australian attack in West Indies, once he did, he didn't do very well. Gower had to play 6 international tests against a Lillee amped Australian attack in England, 5 of them had the freak Terry Alderman too.

So Yeah, Greenidge is arguably not above even Gower.
 
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kyear2

kyear2

Hall of Fame Member
h_hurricane said:
Looked up the list of bowlers who dismissed Greenidge the most. Imran and Kapil are at the top here. No wonder kyear2 disses them in every other thread, especially when they had a lot of success against another Barbadian cricketer.

Click to expand...
Who literally looks up that ****.

But I do wonder if you genuinely believe that would be the reason for anything?

Or is it that's how you would think?

And could it just be possible that Kapil just isn't nearly as good a bowler as some may want to believe?
That in his era alone that he was behind Marshall, Hadlee, Imran, Lillee, Holding, Garner, Willis, Walsh, Snow, Wasim and even Botham.

That possibly not everything needs to be boiled down to tribalism?
 
Johan

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Johan said:
Now regarding Greenidge, I did not want to bring it up but there's really no reason he is decisively better than even David Gower, I often went into depth on why Gooch is equal to Gordon but never about David, but on David. RPI in brackets.

Career averages and Run-Per-Inning

Gower: 44.25 (40.15)
Greenidge: 44.72 (40.85)

Greenidge is slightly ahead here, but here comes the catch, Greenidge didn't have to play the West Indies, Gower did and therefore the bowling unit of the time was dodged and believe me during the 1980s there was an immense gap between England and West Indies in bowling, The Carribean Unit averaged 25 while the English unit averaged 35, India was horrible and they were at 36 so overall Greenidge had a huge advantage over Gower, what does Gower average minus the West Indies?

Gower: 46.90 (42.60)

clearly, Gordon falls backwards here, and this is without World Series Cricket, if that is included Gower would have an edge in pure direct statistics, no need to remove West Indies.

Overseas

Gordon: 42.22 (39.5)
Gower: 46.06 (41.96)

Gower also did well in West Indies, only failed against them at home wickets, and it doesn't take a genius to realise Gower had harder home wickets than Greenidge did.

Asia

Gordon: 36.23 (34.22)
Gower: 56.90 (47.41)

Gordon had tougher pitches in Asia but Gower was too amazing to not be given the advantage.

In Australia

Gordon: 30.97 (29.03)
Gower: 44.49 (40.53)

Gordon was amazing in England but Gower averaged 43 in West Indies which given the bowling order was very good too, Gower didn't get games in New Zealand, only 4 innings. Gower did bash Hadlee at home in swing and seam friendly conditions against dukes though

Worst Countries with decent sample

Gordon
Pakistan (17.27)
Australia (30.97)

Gower
India (37.20)

Against common opponents

vs Australia
David Gower averages 4 points higher, he averages 44.8, Gordon 40.7

vs New Zealand
Gordon Greenidge averages 5 points higher, he averaged 55, Gower 50

vs Pakistan
David Gower averages 18 points more, He averaged 49, Greenidge did 31

vs India
Gordon Greenidge averages 3 points more, He averaged 47, Gower did 44.

So Gower did mininum of 44.8 against all of their mutual opponents, Greenidge barely over 40 against Australia and 31 against Pakistan, also has a bogey country in Pakistan.

Now Gordon did get some very difficult pitches in Pakistan but that's no excuse to average 17, Haynes got the same and did mid 30s, Viv did well too, Richardson got the same pitches and did 31 too.

Now, against common opponents...

Gower: 46.28 (42.30)
Gordon: 42.60 (38.20)

Greenidge gets opener boost, Gower gets boost for carrying a pretty weak batting after Boycott went away and he was lesser anyway for most of Gower's career. Gower averages 47 to Greenidge's 44 once Windies is removed, has a superior away record, no real bogey country and so forth, and had good output in West Indies on top.

Forget Compton, that's a different league, is there anything objective that makes Greenidge superior to even David Gower? This is World Series Cricket

Greenidge: 43.74 (39.96)

his average in World Series Cricket when playing Australia was 37, in West Indies against a Lillee amp Australia was..31, also another good point there, Gordon never had to play a Lillee led Australian attack in West Indies, once he did, he didn't do very well. Gower had to play 6 international tests against a Lillee amped Australian attack in England, 5 of them had the freak Terry Alderman too.

So Yeah, Greenidge is arguably not above even Gower.
Click to expand...
another thing, it doesn't seem like Gordon has peer reputation over David either.

In West Indies, Gower made Malcolm Marshall's XI ahead of Miandad and alongside Greenidge, Gower also made Curtly Ambrose's list ahead of Miandad. Now, In Australia, Gower was often put in conversation for the best batsman in the world, Lillee rated Gower as the third best batsman he bowled to after Viv and Sobers in his autobiography: Menace and Allan Border declared David Gower the best batsmen in the world in mid 1980s. Gordon really doesn't seem to have much over him, if anything at all.

on the eye test, Gordon's technique looks more flawed to me too, Gower has the habit of fishing outside off stump and pulling a Kohli constantly but Gordon is very front foot heavy seemingly and relies on slashes and hacks, flicks, drives, cuts kind of thing. His technique is absolutely not made for anything that bounces above your waist and he doesn't seem to have much scoring against bounce above waist bar a seriously risky cut shot and a hook/pull shot. Both seem adept against spin, Gower especially against leg spin atleast and both seem more than adept against accurate seam and swing bowling from Hadlee, though Gordon perhaps moreso. Both are extremely entertaining Batsmen to watch but for entirely different reasons.
 
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A

Al Salvador

School Boy/Girl Cricketer
Will have greenidge above gower due to opener tax in tough era and long career factor. Since his numbers drop off due to extremely long career. Although I don't think gower will have a major drop of in long career. Gower was more all conditions player, Greenidge had a better peak. Both attacking. I think both are underrated here due to final average, gower more so because he's systematically underrated here. Gower easily better than people like Hayden, Graeme Smith, younis types for me. And miles better than soft run bully yousuf. @capt_Luffy join me and johan on Gower hype
 
Johan

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
Gower and Greenidge are equal as far as I am concerned, enough of a gap in all condition talent, performance against the common opposition and overseas returns to safely say they are equal to each other, once the deficit of their respective bowling lineups is put into context, Gower gets ahead in pretty much every statistic, Greenidge clinches it back with ATG tours of England to equality but equal to Gower is the farthest I reckon Greenidge gets, I think it's a fair placement given the statistics, and more reflective of Greenidge's quality.
 
h_hurricane

h_hurricane

International Vice-Captain
In this comparison, if there is anyone who deserves an adjustment in final average, it is Kapil. As the only bowler worth his salt in the team for over a decade, he played 131 tests, bowled over 27K deliveries, was bowled to ground on numerous occasions and yet returned with a sub 30 average. The next highest in that era was Botham who played 29 tests less. With proper workload management and another world class bowler in that team, he would have had better numbers.

Greenidge played 23 tests less too, and only had to stand in the crease and wave a piece of stick (/s).

On a more serious note, as I said earlier, Greenidge is better in primary skill and has opener tax. But merits no adjustment in average when compared to Kapil. He didn't have to deal with the ominous proposition of facing the WI bowlers of that era either.
 
Johan

Johan

Hall of Fame Member
h_hurricane said:
On a more serious note, as I said earlier, Greenidge is better in primary skill and has opener tax. But merits no adjustment in average when compared to Kapil. He didn't have to deal with the ominous proposition of facing the WI bowlers of that era either.
Click to expand...
Agreed, As good as Greenidge was, I reckon the likes of Gower and Crowe were better for this exact reason, West Indies takes a good bit off the average of a lot of players in the 1980s.
 
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