Jasprit Bumrah vs Dennis Lillee

[subshakerz]

@subshakerz Ambrose is better than Steyn.

Again depends on how you want to measure it. But Steyn is just going to get me more wickets across more conditions

 

[centurymaker]

Don't be surprised if Bumrah ends up playing 4 tests this series.

If India somehow win the 4th test and Bumrah doesn't bowl like 50 overs, there's every chance that he plays the decider.

 

[Randomfan]

Let me put it this way,

I will take a bowler who has shown an ability to run through sides in all kinds of conditions for 3/4 tests like Steyn/Bumrah etc over some one like Lillee who has pretty much no track record in different conditions. It's a stretch to start making asusmption that he would have done well if he had played lots of cricket in Asia. Even some one like great McGrath lacked the ability to run through sides in Asian conditions and he has only 1 5-fer in entire career in Asia. Lillee record is similar to Ashwin. Ashwin was great in India, SL, WI, BD etc. Lille in home grouds, Eng and NZ.

Also, posters compare older era with now in context of long series as if it's the same situation. Tests used to have rest days till 80s. Having a rest day in middle of test is way different than playing for 5 days. Posters are comparing apple to orange here.

Lots of hypotheticals here, but actual results matters. If you have not done great in different conditions and not shown an ability to run through sides then no amount of longevity/peer reputation/bowling 5 tests with rest days in between etc will help. At highest level actual output does matter and hypotheticals can take anyone so far.

Actual results puts bowlers like Steyn/Bumrah near the top and it does not do it for Lillee. Now we can go into lots of hypotheticals, but that's a different issue.

 

[subshakerz]

Let me put it this way,

I will take a bowler who has shown an ability to run through sides in all kinds of conditions for 3/4 tests like Steyn/Bumrah etc over some one like Lillee who has pretty much no track record in different conditions. It's a stretch to start making asusmption that he would have done well if he had played lots of cricket in Asia. Even some one like great McGrath lacked the ability to run through sides in Asian conditions and he has only 1 5-fer in entire career in Asia. Lillee record is similar to Ashwin. Ashwin was great in India, SL, WI, BD etc. Lille in home grouds, Eng and NZ.

Also, posters compare older era with now in context of long series as if it's the same situation. Tests used to have rest days till 80s. Having a rest day in middle of test is way different than playing for 5 days. Posters are comparing apple to orange here.

Lots of hypotheticals here, but actual results matters. If you have not done great in different conditions and not shown an ability to run through sides then no amount of longevity/peer reputation/bowling 5 tests with rest days in between etc will help. At highest level actual output does matter and hypotheticals can take anyone so far.

Actual results puts bowlers like Steyn/Bumrah near the top and it does not do it for Lillee. Now we can go into lots of hypotheticals, but that's a different issue.

I rate Steyn ahead of Lillee for that reason. And soon I will rate Bumrah too once he crosses a threshold.

 

[Prince EWS]

So @Prince EWS goes with the order Hoggard > Lillee > Bumrah.

Yes.

 

[DrWolverine]

Actual results puts bowlers like Steyn/Bumrah near the top and it does not do it for Lillee. Now we can go into lots of hypotheticals, but that's a different issue.

True.

Dale Steyn was a legit match winner who could run through any batting lineup on any pitch and that’s what made him special.

When Steyn got into rhythm, he wasn’t just taking wickets; he was dismantling lineups. That outswinger with late movement at 145+ km/h was unplayable.

 

[Johan]

When Steyn got into rhythm, he wasn’t just taking wickets; he was dismantling lineups. That outswinger with late movement at 145+ km/h was unplayable.

One of the greatest bowlers in history of the sport deemed an outswinger that moves late "the delivery that dismantles the Greatest of batsmen"

 

[subshakerz]

One of the greatest bowlers in history of the sport deemed an outswinger that moves late "the delivery that dismantles the Greatest of batsmen"

Lillee was great at bowling that delivery. I am not sure how many outswingers Ambrose actually bowled.

 

[DrWolverine]

Dale Steyn could have a rough start, get hit around, look off-rhythm and then snap into beast mode out of nowhere. That’s what made him very dangerous.

 

[Johan]

Lillee was great at bowling that delivery. I am not sure how many outswingers Ambrose actually bowled.

second half Lillee had great swing and cut bowling but I'm not really sure I'd describe his outswinger as viciously late like Freddie, Steyn or Akram.

 

[DrWolverine]

Bumrah reminds me of an Ambrose-Steyn hybrid.

On his off days when the wickets stay away, he is miserly, relentless, accurate and hard to score off.

On his best day; he combines pace, skill and the ability to tear through the lineup making batsmen look clueless.

 

[PlayerComparisons]

Bumrah reminds me of an Ambrose-Steyn hybrid.

On his off days when the wickets stay away, he is miserly, relentless, accurate and hard to score off.

On his best day; he combines pace, skill and the ability to tear through the lineup making batsmen look clueless.

So he’s basically this eras Marshall

 

[DrWolverine]

So he’s basically this eras Marshall

I never saw him play live. So had to use the examples of players I have watched live(on television)

 

[Coronis]

Yeah, for some reason, the pitches in the Caribbean weren't quite as bowler friendly as the Australia ones.

I could be wrong, but don't think they used the test grounds and had to make do with what were available.

I know at least the first season of WSC was run in tandem with the test series…. let me check.



In the second year they also played on the SCG, and in the Windies they played on traditional cricket grounds. (namely Sabina Park, Queen’s Park, Kensington and Bourda)

 

[kyear2]

"Better" is relative, he is at a point where he can play 3 games a series in major away tours, if an elite pacer can play 5 of 5 then he naturally has an advantage because he is outputting for 2 more games and would naturally be more impactful in the series, the gap between the quality of elite pacers is so miniscule that such a factor becomes a big thing, play Lillee and Bumrah together and Bumrah would average 1 or 2 point lower sure but one would play substantially more. Cricketing Careers aren't race, but more a marathon.

Has anyone actually done a check to see what percentage most pacers played with regards to games in 5 test series?

 

[kyear2]

Dale Steyn could have a rough start, get hit around, look off-rhythm and then snap into beast mode out of nowhere. That’s what made him very dangerous.

Also what made him inconsistent and a greater liability than any of the other ATG bowlers.

 

[kyear2]

Bumrah reminds me of an Ambrose-Steyn hybrid.

On his off days when the wickets stay away, he is miserly, relentless, accurate and hard to score off.

On his best day; he combines pace, skill and the ability to tear through the lineup making batsmen look clueless.

Yeah, one of the reasons I can't separate Steyn and Ambrose is how absolutely diametrically opposed they are.

Ambrose's wpm is a slight concern as is Steyn's era.
Neither had the greatest of plan B's, but Ambrose was better at pushing for the ball of required, more than Steyn was at stemming the flow of runs.

But Ambrose was a master at taking out the top order, while Steyn, as you mentioned earlier, could come back and do the same to the middle order.

Think both are easily in the same tier as Hadlee for me. Just below the top 2..

 

[Cricket Bliss]

Guess the reason why Lillee is rated so high was because in his era when Ashes was the main competition and he was the best during his era in it.
By bowling quick bouncers set the standard for the West Indian bowlers.
Successful against England and West Indies at home and away in England. Since television coverage was not popular in West Indies then, that performance didn’t affect much.
First ever televised superstar.

All though not part of Tests, his performance in 71-72 against Rest of The World was impressive.

 

[kyear2]

Guess the reason why Lillee is rated so high was because in his era when Ashes was the main competition and he was the best during his era in it.
By bowling quick bouncers set the standard for the West Indian bowlers.
Successful against England and West Indies at home and away in England. Since television coverage was not popular in West Indies then, that performance didn’t affect much.
First ever televised superstar.

All though not part of Tests, his performance in 71-72 against Rest of The World was impressive.

That was indeed impressive.

 

[Coronis]

Has anyone actually done a check to see what percentage most pacers played with regards to games in 5 test series?

I’m currently out, I’ll do a dive into that when I get home