Jack Leach out of the Ashes

[Molehill]

I just don't think Moeen was all that good a test bowler even in his pomp, but tbf he really has nothing to lose in this situation so he might surprise me and go decently.

In England, Moeen's averages are basically 33 for both bat and ball. It seems odd that it should be 26 against India and 47 against Australia. Interestingly, his overall career strike rate of 60 is slightly better than Lyon's 64.

What we don't know is how he'll bowl under Stokes who has shown a willingness to attack with his spinner far more than Root/Cook.

I'd be surprised if it comes off and I'd have probably gone with Dawson, but Moeen is certainly the more naturally talented of the pair.

 

[Pothas]

Yeah Moeen at his best was such a valuable player at home. He may never have had the control but an attacking spinner was a lot more valuable given the balance of the attack. He really did better with the ball than anyone could reasonably expected, overall he underachieved with the bat though.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I've seen a few articles suggesting the preponderance of lefties in yer crims' top 7 (or 8, assuming Starc plays) was a factor in Mo getting the call up, with only Smith, Labu and Green playing the way god intended.

This seems slightly counter-intuitive given Leach was unquestionably our #1 before his back went, so my guess is McCullum and Sir Ben just like the cut of his jib.

Meanwhile Ali Martin writes in the Granuiad it was a bit of lack of forward thinking not to have a replacement twirler lined up given Leach's history:

Though the only ever-present in the attack under Stokes and McCullum, and victim of an injury no one saw coming, Leach manages a health issue, Crohn’s disease, that could have flared up this summer. To not have an understudy locked in already – for Stokes to have not quietly sounded out Moeen about his theoretical interest during their seven weeks together in the Indian Premier League – seems a strange oversight.

He's not wrong, IHMO.

 

[GIMH]

Seems a bit of much ado about nothing though. Moeen agreed to come back so why does it matter when he was asked? Doubt he’d have come out of retirement to carry drinks

 

[Ali TT]

I've seen a few articles suggesting the preponderance of lefties in yer crims' top 7 (or 8, assuming Starc plays) was a factor in Mo getting the call up, with only Smith, Labu and Green playing the way god intended.

This seems slightly counter-intuitive given Leach was unquestionably our #1 before his back went, so my guess is McCullum and Sir Ben just like the cut of his jib.

Meanwhile Ali Martin writes in the Granuiad it was a bit of lack of forward thinking not to have a replacement twirler lined up given Leach's history:



He's not wrong, IHMO.

England have tried a handful of other spinners in recent years and none have stood up while the c***ties have no interest in developing young English twirlers. Not really sure what Baz and Ben were supposed to do in just twelve months, they're not responsible for wider talent development in the English game

 

[Ashes81]

I just don't think Moeen was all that good a test bowler even in his pomp, but tbf he really has nothing to lose in this situation so he might surprise me and go decently.

Mo isn't that good a spinner, he's a batsmen who has developed his bowling to an acceptable test level.

Quite how he's got nearly 200 test wickets, at a decent average for an English finger spinner I'll never know.

He has taken more wickets at an average better than the likes of Emburey, and Tuffers, who were bith superior bowlers.

But he had a knack of taking wickets, often to attacking shots.

 

[Third_Man]

Mo isn't that good a spinner, he's a batsmen who has developed his bowling to an acceptable test level.

Quite how he's got nearly 200 test wickets, at a decent average for an English finger spinner I'll never know.

He has taken more wickets at an average better than the likes of Emburey, and Tuffers, who were bith superior bowlers.

But he had a knack of taking wickets, often to attacking shots.

More tests probably something to do with it in Tufnell's case. Emburey played the same number of tests as Moeen but 50 less wickets, did he share the spinning duties more perhaps, so wickets were more shared out?

But your last sentence probably has the answer. Do batsmen show spinners less respect than they used to?

 

[mackembhoy]

There was a fella on the C247 Board who literally despised Mo.....it almost certainly had racist overtones mind.

Michael Vaughan?

 

[grecian]

Mo isn't that good a spinner, he's a batsmen who has developed his bowling to an acceptable test level.

Quite how he's got nearly 200 test wickets, at a decent average for an English finger spinner I'll never know.

He has taken more wickets at an average better than the likes of Emburey, and Tuffers, who were bith superior bowlers.

But he had a knack of taking wickets, often to attacking shots.

One of my tired assertions on here is that the way the LBW rule has been interpreted has been a life-saver for finger-spinners, back in Embers and Tuffers day, batsmen just used to pretend to play a shot with bat clearly behind pad, never given out, actually a remember Tufnell getting one or two near the end of his career, which shocked him as umps became wise to it, finally. DRS has also shown how many times the balls hit the stumps, whilst umpires used to give the benefit of the doubt saying it may turn too much, which was laughabl;e when you think of the likes of Croft, Richard Illingworth not exactly jagging it. The fact that bats have to actually play the ball more now brings in catches at the wicket far more.

Between the uncovering of pitches and these changes was a dire time to be a conventional finger-spinner.

Conversely though, even though Moeen takes a lot of wickets with attacking shots, I really don't think this helps the modern spinner that people go after them. They have big heavier bats, much bigger sweet spots, where mi****s are being slammed for boundaries and not bad bowling can easily go at 8 an over. They take some wickets for it, but bad shots going for runs makes it much harder if attacked. If they hadn't changed the way they view LBWS, finger-spinners would be dead as a breed outside the subcontinent IMHO

Yet it should be said Moeen does rip the ball, on his day probably more than Swann and definitely more than Leach and probably Embers

Emburey though is one I do think would have really done well under the new interpretation, great arm-ball and very accurate, and actually batting wise used to hit a lot of boundaries under the old conditions so may have averaged to be an even better all-rounder, but we'll never know.

 

[Ashes81]

One of my tired assertions on here is that the way the LBW rule has been interpreted has been a life-saver for finger-spinners, back in Embers and Tuffers day, batsmen just used to pretend to play a shot with bat clearly behind pad, never given out, actually a remember Tufnell getting one or two near the end of his career, which shocked him as umps became wise to it, finally. DRS has also shown how many times the balls hit the stumps, whilst umpires used to give the benefit of the doubt saying it may turn too much, which was laughabl;e when you think of the likes of Croft, Richard Illingworth not exactly jagging it. The fact that bats have to actually play the ball more now brings in catches at the wicket far more.

Between the uncovering of pitches and these changes was a dire time to be a conventional finger-spinner.

Conversely though, even though Moeen takes a lot of wickets with attacking shots, I really don't think this helps the modern spinner that people go after them. They have big heavier bats, much bigger sweet spots, where mi****s are being slammed for boundaries and not bad bowling can easily go at 8 an over. They take some wickets for it, but bad shots going for runs makes it much harder if attacked. If they hadn't changed the way they view LBWS, finger-spinners would be dead as a breed outside the subcontinent IMHO

Yet it should be said Moeen does rip the ball, on his day probably more than Swann and definitely more than Leach and probably Embers

Emburey though is one I do think would have really done well under the new interpretation, great arm-ball and very accurate, and actually batting wise used to hit a lot of boundaries under the old conditions so may have averaged to be an even better all-rounder, but we'll never know.

Really valid points about DRS - it has changed the game for spinners, particularly finger spinners.

Embers was a lovely bowler, superb classical action who looked to tie the batsmen down and force a rash attacking shot.

He would definitely have had a much better average and wicket haul in the modern game.

 

[the big bambino]

Emburey's average surprised me. Always looked good to me. Umps are keener to give lbws now and drs helps as it either justifies (or repairs) their decisions so it takes the pressure off them. I recall a stat where Viv Richards, not known for pad play, really smoked Embers to an extent that must've impacted his average all by himself.

 

[wpdavid]

My take on Emburey was that he wasn't the same after his three-year exile from test cricket due to his 1982 trip to SA. He still had his moments against the weak mid-1980s Australian line-up, but not a lot apart from that. I remember when he twisted his ankle during one of the Pakistan tests in 1987 that some wag suggested it was the first thing he'd turned all summer.

 

[Michelle Fivefer]

I just don't think Moeen was all that good a test bowler even in his pomp, but tbf he really has nothing to lose in this situation so he might surprise me and go decently.

For me the problem is Moeen’s mind changes, He wants to play. Then he doesn’t. But now he’s decided he does. Most players selected for England are delighted to be asked and don’t dither about it. If I was a selector I’d be inviting him in for a chat to get to the bottom of the inconsistency and what he really wants to do.

 

[Michelle Fivefer]

Michael Vaughan?

. 247 was a great forum but MPV didn’t lower himself to mix with us plebs…

 

[grecian]

For me the problem is Moeen’s mind changes, He wants to play. Then he doesn’t. But now he’s decided he does. Most players selected for England are delighted to be asked and don’t dither about it. If I was a selector I’d be inviting him in for a chat to get to the bottom of the inconsistency and what he really wants to do.

I genuinely don't see a problem with this, look Leach was the main man, Moeen was happy to cede to him, yet Jack became injured and he's filling in for a series, eveything else is over-complicating things IMHO. We hope Ahmed is the future but we don't really want him as sole spinner at 19 in the Ashes.

Oh and we have had a few minorly famous people post on cW, and there's a belief that some comms read it and seem to regurgitate some views, who knows?

 

[Michelle Fivefer]

I genuinely don't see a problem with this, look Leach was the main man, Moeen was happy to cede to him, yet Jack became injured and he's filling in for a series, eveything else is over-complicating things IMHO. We hope Ahmed is the future but we don't really want him as sole spinner at 19 in the Ashes.

Fair enough.

Oh and we have had a few minorly famous people post on cW, and there's a belief that some comms read it and seem to regurgitate some views, who knows?

I shall look out for the “minorly famous people” ….

 

[Spark]

We have also inadvertently bullied some minorly famous (frankly in cricketing circles very famous) people off the forum in the past.

Well, I say "we", it was mostly one person.

 

[Son Of Coco]

We have also inadvertently bullied some minorly famous (frankly in cricketing circles very famous) people off the forum in the past.

Well, I say "we", it was mostly one person.

Barry Richards was bullied off a Facebook cricket group I was in. Clearly the people doing it were complete muppets.

 

[weeman27bob]

Barry Richards was bullied off a Facebook cricket group I was in. Clearly the people doing it were complete muppets.

There was probably lots of talk about Test cricket, so he didn't have much insight to add

 

[sledger]

Mo isn't that good a spinner, he's a batsmen who has developed his bowling to an acceptable test level.

Quite how he's got nearly 200 test wickets, at a decent average for an English finger spinner I'll never know.

He has taken more wickets at an average better than the likes of Emburey, and Tuffers, who were bith superior bowlers.

But he had a knack of taking wickets, often to attacking shots.

I daresay it might be because he's quite a good cricketer.