Is the current Indian management doing a good job?

[CricAddict]

Truth's post was really good, very detailed points,

I dont know what kind of comparisons are these,

Irfan was injured before IPL, and RP Singh was not able to create impressive performances in the domestic arena, and RP Singh has not played any 4 day games since January, so its kind of equal in that matter.
on the other hand Irfan has really improved his fitness, he looked very fit in the IPL aswell.
Whether IPL is good or not, Irfan got his rhythm back in his bowling, thats the main point here. And Irfan is and added advantage with the bat aswell, in tests, he can easily bat at number 7 and play as the 5th bowling to solve our bowling issues. An secondly, Irfan has achieved a lot in his international career if you compare it with someone like RP Singh.

And why Uthappa vs Raina?
Its clearly proven that Uthappa played well under Dravid and not under Dhoni because Dhoni kept shuffling him up and down the order and Dravid gave him a better role.
The point here is that Uthappa wasn't given proper opportunities and thats completely true.

Its clearly written in the post that Raina does deserve his chance in ODIs, noone has questioned his place in the ODI team. Its the test team where he doesn't belong at all.


And where did this Dinesh Karthik vs Rohit Sharma thing come from? Both are completely different in styles, Karthik is a wicket keeper batsmen who should be the 2nd keeper in the team for tests or even in the ODIs if required, he is very adaptable unlike others who perform only on flat wickets.
And Dinesh Karthik's previous 20 innings before 1 bad series are show, he gave good starts 11 times out of those 20 innings, so it proves that he was dropped without strong reasons, and was never picked again,
I dont doubt Sharma's talent, but he has failed and got his opportunities time and again. That's the point here. Others don't get similar opportunities even after proving themselves at the international level, Irfan is the biggest example of that.

And why are you comparing Yusuf with Harbhajan or Nehra? they both are bowlers,
And Vijay is an opener, and Yusuf has anyways performed much better than Vijay even though he has not got proper opportunities.
Jadeja picked ahead of Yusuf clearly shows how badly Yusuf is handled,
In recent times, no Indian batsmen has succeeded at number 7 in ODIs because a batsmen cannot get much overs to play there, he would get more overs only when the pitch assists the bowlers, Yusuf is the only 1 who has managed to play a long innings and play against any bowling lineup out of all the batsmen that have been tried at that number. Even the better rated Raina has an average of 23 at number 7.
His bowling is also handy if utilised properly.

And you are getting the whole post and thread wrong, its about the managements stupidity, biased selections, captains favouritism towards some players,etc.
If Irfan was dropped, then why is Harbhajan never dropped(1 and a half years of bad performances is enough to be dropped)? Even Yuvraj was dropped 1ce before WC.
How can RP Singh get a place in the side from nowhere? atleast there should be some logic behind the selection.
Raina picked ahead of Yuvraj(better bowler and batsmen than him) and others for tests, why is that happening? Don't we need specialists for tests, and if you want to pick an experienced ODI player, than we have Yuvraj.
How did Ojha loose his place? just see his performances, why was he made to play most of his places only against Sri Lanka? why is that not happening with Ashwin who has played most of his matches against weaker opponents?
Why didn't Yusuf get to bat up the order when most of the seniors were rested in west indies? his bowling was also hardly used.
Why did Uthappa and Karthik get dropped and not picked again(his performance is there in front of you)? have they done so badly that they are not selected even when the seniors are rested?
Raina is selected as a future captain, why? is he so consistent?
Dravid getting dropped(from ODIs) because MSD opts for a young team, but then he wants Dravid back in difficult consitons.
There are so many other things like these, but i really don't have time to write all this stuff.

Try to understand the thread and posts here first,
its relating to the discrimination between the players,its clearly visible that some players are treated well and others are not.
Its not X player vs X player or so on. And also the fact that our management has no long term vision. They are not able to pick a balanced team, nor are they grooming youngsters.

Regards the bolded part, my reply was in keeping with that.

Regards the comparisons, I was only comparing what they have achieved at international level and domestic level in the past one year and hence the comparison of apples with oranges. I hope you got it right. Felt that Player vs player comparison would be more specific than players vs players.

And regards the post, Irfan still has to prove more to get to the test team and he is far from a Number 7 bat and Dhoni cannot be a No 6 bat. Would weaken the batting lineup for sure. He could be included in the one day team though. And I repeat RP should also not have been selected to the team.

I agree that Yuvraj should have been picked ahead of Raina. The reason for Raina's selection was the exact happenings as the call made by Cevno ahead of WI tour. Raina performed well in WI while Yuvraj was injured and made the team because of that.

 

[CricAddict]

A shaving cut hurts like a bitch when it hits scar tissue though. And this English tour isn't a shaving cut, it's a bloody gaping ****** on the forehead.

Look, I'm not about to get into a dick comparing contest here. You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure that we were never anything other than stewards and gatekeepers for the no.1 spot. It's not "diligent introspection", it's plain common sense. Didn't win a series in Aus, didn't win one in SA, didn't win one in SL. Won one in Eng, barely at that. Our no. 1 ranking. as fleeting as it was, was nothing but a combination of a talented batting line up and other teams transitioning.

There are no gatekeepers here. In the last 2 years, the number of situations in which India has come back to draw or win the test is very much admirable for the resilience and should not be forgotten because of having just one **** series.

We can introspect and have some constructive criticism but just giving up on the team and downplaying past achievements is not the way to go. Would you consider the England team gatekeepers if they dont win the SL series in SL? No, they are number 1 and deserve to be No 1. As much as India deserved to be No 1 in the last 2 years.

 

[nsniks]

Raina picked ahead of Yuvraj(better bowler and batsmen than him) and others for tests, why is that happening? Don't we need specialists for tests, and if you want to pick an experienced ODI player, than we have Yuvraj.
How did Ojha loose his place? just see his performances, why was he made to play most of his places only against Sri Lanka? why is that not happening with Ashwin who has played most of his matches against weaker opponents?
Raina is selected as a future captain, why? is he so consistent?

Agree with everything else but I think why Raina was picked for the test series against England was because he scored runs against West Indies when other batsmen except Dravid and Laxman were struggling. Pujara would have been the first choice if he wasnt injured. Kohli would have been the second choice if he had scored some runs against them. Raina scored runs in pressure situation and that worked for him. Now Yuvraj wasnt picked for the first test match because he came back from injury, had no match practice whatsoever, got a duck in the tour game where Raina scored a century so it was almost fair that Raina gets to play the first test match where he did score runs. I am not saying he should be in the test squad, I am just giving you reasons for which he was picked by the management.

And what has ashwin done to warrant a drop from the team, he has been given limited opportunities and he has performed really well in them. In the WC, when he was included in our playing XI then only our bowling line up looked like restricting the other team to a respectable score. Ojha would definitely be picked for test matches and its so great to see him perform really well in county cricket.

And the reason why Raina was selected as captain in WI series because there was no other person to take up captaincy, U wanted harbhajan as captain for that series??? and now also he is the vice captain for this series because Gautam Gambhir is injured and rest all the players are newcomers. If Dhoni leaves captaincy next in line is Gambhir not Raina

 

[Furball]

With role models like these dicatating training sessions.... lol

What's your point? Fletcher's not the one getting paid to play for India.

 

[karan316]

Agree with everything else but I think why Raina was picked for the test series against England was because he scored runs against West Indies when other batsmen except Dravid and Laxman were struggling. Pujara would have been the first choice if he wasnt injured. Kohli would have been the second choice if he had scored some runs against them. Raina scored runs in pressure situation and that worked for him. Now Yuvraj wasnt picked for the first test match because he came back from injury, had no match practice whatsoever, got a duck in the tour game where Raina scored a century so it was almost fair that Raina gets to play the first test match where he did score runs. I am not saying he should be in the test squad, I am just giving you reasons for which he was picked by the management.

And what has ashwin done to warrant a drop from the team, he has been given limited opportunities and he has performed really well in them. In the WC, when he was included in our playing XI then only our bowling line up looked like restricting the other team to a respectable score. Ojha would definitely be picked for test matches and its so great to see him perform really well in county cricket.

And the reason why Raina was selected as captain in WI series because there was no other person to take up captaincy, U wanted harbhajan as captain for that series??? and now also he is the vice captain for this series because Gautam Gambhir is injured and rest all the players are newcomers. If Dhoni leaves captaincy next in line is Gambhir not Raina

You cannot say that Yuvraj wasn't picked for the first test because he was just back from injury, I don't think the players have been looked after so well that they would allow them to rest because he is back from an injury. Sehwag and Gambhir were made to play with injuries, Sehwag's case was even bizzare, he was picked despite of knowing that he wouldn't play the 1st 2 matches at all and also the fact that he would need complete rest before he can actually play.

I agree with you on some points, Raina did perform well in WI and warmup game,
but my main issue is, why was he selected for tests in the first place, there are so many players(specialists) available right now who should have played in place of him,
And in West Indies series, the players struggling there were
Vijay - is anyways a waste, I have already been questioning his place in the team,
Mukund and Kohli - were having their first test series. Mukund has the potential but needs more time, same with Kohli.
MSD - batting form has anyways had a slump in the recent tests.
So I don't think Raina had done something really exceptional in the WI series.

He might do well in some tests, but he is just so pathetic on pitches supporting the bowlers, just before the WC when India went to SA, he wasn't able to play quality fast bowlers at all ,we saw it England aswell,he can't manage to play them until the pitch is good for batting.
Picking him is a biased as well as a short term solution, it will be a disaster for India in long term.

And I never said that Ashwin should have been dropped, my main problem was with Ojha getting dropped in favour of Ashwin.
Ojha was handled so badly, 13 out of his 16 ODIs were against Sri Lanka, who are the best players of spin,
still he managed 20 wickets at an economy of 4.3, don't you think it was good enough to get a longer run? out of his 11 tests, 5 were against SL, he managed to pick 42 wickets.

on the other hand Ashwin has played most of his matches against team who don't play spin too well. I m a fan of Ashwin myself, but why the discrimination between the way the players are handled? Ashwin has 3 matches vs England, 5 vs New zealand and 3 vs WI,
other 3 being against Aus and only 1 against SL.
Ashwin is handled pretty well, Ojha is not.

And i knw that Gambhir is the replacement captain in case of MSD's injury,Gambhir is 29 yrs old, I was talking about our future captain, out of the youngsters its Raina who is getting the captainship. Kohli has led the India U19 side to a World Cup victory, he has also been way more consistent than Raina in ODIs. And Yuvraj was still fit when Raina was announced as the captain, it was later that he got injured. Raina would have been the captain even in Yuvraj's presence if he was fit.
I think it should be Gambhir in MSD's absence, and Yuvraj if both of them are not there,
and then we can go to Kohli, Raina is nowhere in the picture.

 

[karan316]

Regards the bolded part, my reply was in keeping with that.

Regards the comparisons, I was only comparing what they have achieved at international level and domestic level in the past one year and hence the comparison of apples with oranges. I hope you got it right. Felt that Player vs player comparison would be more specific than players vs players.

And regards the post, Irfan still has to prove more to get to the test team and he is far from a Number 7 bat and Dhoni cannot be a No 6 bat. Would weaken the batting lineup for sure. He could be included in the one day team though. And I repeat RP should also not have been selected to the team.

I agree that Yuvraj should have been picked ahead of Raina. The reason for Raina's selection was the exact happenings as the call made by Cevno ahead of WI tour. Raina performed well in WI while Yuvraj was injured and made the team because of that.

Regarding the Raina thing, I have already said all I had to in the above post,

And your player vs player comparson was not logical,
I gave you the detailed statistics of Uthappa and Kartik,

You compare the batsmen according to their batting pos, team balance and other such things,
Uthappa vs Vijay
well, we need an attacking opener for ODIs looking at the way ODIs are played currently,
Uthappa is a very attacking opener compared to Murali Vijay, Vijay is quite defensive in his approach with poor shot selection.
Uthappa should play when Gambhir or Sehwag or Sachin are injured or rested,
his record as an opener(as u saw under Dravid's captaincy) is quite good.

Yusuf Pathan vs Any batsmen who has batted at number 7 recently,
apart from Yusuf, no other batsmen has been able to play a long innings at that number along with the capability to turn the game around from any situation.
Yusuf at 7, and Jadeja/Ashwin(in place of Harbhajan) should be at number 8, that would be the ideal situation for the team in ODIs. Jadeja would not be the best option for number 7, Jadeja is a good batsmen, but he fails when the team needs quick runs. If he bats at 8, it would strengthen our batting lineup and would give Yusuf a chance to play with freedom.

Irfan vs RP, or Vinay Kumar, Nehra, Munaf Patel.

Irfan is the only one out of the above to have proved himself at the international level in both tests and ODIs, he is a big plus with his bat aswell. It would be foolish to ask Irfan to prove himself all over again in the domestic arena and then select him. Even Nehra didn't do anything so special apart from some good spells in the IPL before getting selected.
and RP Singh played most of his IPL games on Nehru Stadium in Kochi which assists fast bowlers, even Ishant Sharma had taken 5 wickets in 3 overs there, despite of that, RP was not that effective, this proves my point regarding the bias towards some players.
And i still say he should be batting at number 7 in tests because of our bowling issues, 4 bowlers are not able to do the job, if we are having Harbhajan/Ashwin/Jadeja/Mishra at 8 and Praveen Kumar at 9 then we can afford to play Irfan at number 7 in tests.Especially when our bowlers are having so much of problems.

And about Karthik, i have already given proper stats, to prove that why he shouldn't have been dropped, and if he was dropped, he should have got a second chance.

And even i feel that Rohit Sharma is talented, but regarding him, all i said was that he gets regular chances, while others don't. If he wouldn't have been close to the captain, even he would have not got chances again like Karthik or Uthappa or Irfan. Even Rohit has failed a few times, but gets his chances again.

 

[nsniks]

You cannot say that Yuvraj wasn't picked for the first test because he was just back from injury, I don't think the players have been looked after so well that they would allow them to rest because he is back from an injury. Sehwag and Gambhir were made to play with injuries, Sehwag's case was even bizzare, he was picked despite of knowing that he wouldn't play the 1st 2 matches at all and also the fact that he would need complete rest before he can actually play.

I agree with you on some points, Raina did perform well in WI and warmup game,
but my main issue is, why was he selected for tests in the first place, there are so many players(specialists) available right now who should have played in place of him,
And in West Indies series, the players struggling there were
Vijay - is anyways a waste, I have already been questioning his place in the team,
Mukund and Kohli - were having their first test series. Mukund has the potential but needs more time, same with Kohli.
MSD - batting form has anyways had a slump in the recent tests.
So I don't think Raina had done something really exceptional in the WI series.

He might do well in some tests, but he is just so pathetic on pitches supporting the bowlers, just before the WC when India went to SA, he wasn't able to play quality fast bowlers at all ,we saw it England aswell,he can't manage to play them until the pitch is good for batting.
Picking him is a biased as well as a short term solution, it will be a disaster for India in long term.

And I never said that Ashwin should have been dropped, my main problem was with Ojha getting dropped in favour of Ashwin.
Ojha was handled so badly, 13 out of his 16 ODIs were against Sri Lanka, who are the best players of spin,
still he managed 20 wickets at an economy of 4.3, don't you think it was good enough to get a longer run? out of his 11 tests, 5 were against SL, he managed to pick 42 wickets.

on the other hand Ashwin has played most of his matches against team who don't play spin too well. I m a fan of Ashwin myself, but why the discrimination between the way the players are handled? Ashwin has 3 matches vs England, 5 vs New zealand and 3 vs WI,
other 3 being against Aus and only 1 against SL.
Ashwin is handled pretty well, Ojha is not.

And i knw that Gambhir is the replacement captain in case of MSD's injury,Gambhir is 29 yrs old, I was talking about our future captain, out of the youngsters its Raina who is getting the captainship. Kohli has led the India U19 side to a World Cup victory, he has also been way more consistent than Raina in ODIs. And Yuvraj was still fit when Raina was announced as the captain, it was later that he got injured. Raina would have been the captain even in Yuvraj's presence if he was fit.
I think it should be Gambhir in MSD's absence, and Yuvraj if both of them are not there,
and then we can go to Kohli, Raina is nowhere in the picture.

I didnt say that the only reason why yuvraj wasnt picked for first test match was he was back from injury. I said raina had scored runs in WI in pressure situations otherwise we would faced an embarrassing defeat there also, raina scored century in tour match where yuvraj got a duck and he was back from a layoff so it was fair to back him up. Agree with the fact that raina shouldnt be in the test squad from the start.

And I think no spinners have been handed well by the selectors, they make them play 4-5 matches, drop them and then opt for harbhajan even if they have performed well.

I do think it would be gambhir in MSD's absence and next in line would be kohli for captaincy but kohli is still relatively new. For me raina and yuvraj are equal as choices for captains if both gambhir and MSD are not playing in ODI's. Dont think either of them will be playing a test match for india any time soom

 

[CricAddict]

Regarding the Raina thing, I have already said all I had to in the above post,

And your player vs player comparson was not logical,
I gave you the detailed statistics of Uthappa and Kartik,

You compare the batsmen according to their batting pos, team balance and other such things,
Uthappa vs Vijay
well, we need an attacking opener for ODIs looking at the way ODIs are played currently,
Uthappa is a very attacking opener compared to Murali Vijay, Vijay is quite defensive in his approach with poor shot selection.
Uthappa should play when Gambhir or Sehwag or Sachin are injured or rested,
his record as an opener(as u saw under Dravid's captaincy) is quite good.

Yusuf Pathan vs Any batsmen who has batted at number 7 recently,
apart from Yusuf, no other batsmen has been able to play a long innings at that number along with the capability to turn the game around from any situation.
Yusuf at 7, and Jadeja/Ashwin(in place of Harbhajan) should be at number 8, that would be the ideal situation for the team in ODIs. Jadeja would not be the best option for number 7, Jadeja is a good batsmen, but he fails when the team needs quick runs. If he bats at 8, it would strengthen our batting lineup and would give Yusuf a chance to play with freedom.

Irfan vs RP, or Vinay Kumar, Nehra, Munaf Patel.

Irfan is the only one out of the above to have proved himself at the international level in both tests and ODIs, he is a big plus with his bat aswell. It would be foolish to ask Irfan to prove himself all over again in the domestic arena and then select him. Even Nehra didn't do anything so special apart from some good spells in the IPL before getting selected.
and RP Singh played most of his IPL games on Nehru Stadium in Kochi which assists fast bowlers, even Ishant Sharma had taken 5 wickets in 3 overs there, despite of that, RP was not that effective, this proves my point regarding the bias towards some players.
And i still say he should be batting at number 7 in tests because of our bowling issues, 4 bowlers are not able to do the job, if we are having Harbhajan/Ashwin/Jadeja/Mishra at 8 and Praveen Kumar at 9 then we can afford to play Irfan at number 7 in tests.Especially when our bowlers are having so much of problems.

And about Karthik, i have already given proper stats, to prove that why he shouldn't have been dropped, and if he was dropped, he should have got a second chance.

And even i feel that Rohit Sharma is talented, but regarding him, all i said was that he gets regular chances, while others don't. If he wouldn't have been close to the captain, even he would have not got chances again like Karthik or Uthappa or Irfan. Even Rohit has failed a few times, but gets his chances again.

These are good points Karan. I appreciate them.
But with Jadeja, if he cant score quick at 7, how can he do that at 8?

If as you say, Irfan can really bowl well, its well and good for India. A lower-middle order of Jadeja, Yusuf and Irfan would give good depth to the team.
The main problem for Yusuf is there are not many others who can strike the ball long and hard in the end overs and most of them are great in the opening and middle order positions. So a place for him above 7 is very difficult to find.

And a request, lets keep the replies little short and sweet please

 

[karan316]

These are good points Karan. I appreciate them.
But with Jadeja, if he cant score quick at 7, how can he do that at 8?

If as you say, Irfan can really bowl well, its well and good for India. A lower-middle order of Jadeja, Yusuf and Irfan would give good depth to the team.
The main problem for Yusuf is there are not many others who can strike the ball long and hard in the end overs and most of them are great in the opening and middle order positions. So a place for him above 7 is very difficult to find.

And a request, lets keep the replies little short and sweet please

If Jadeja bats at 8, he won't have that extra pressure of getting quick runs, he is more of a run accumulator and not a hard hitter, if wickets fall early, Jadeja can be sent ahead of both Yusuf and Raina, but if there are lesser overs, you would prefer Yusuf and Raina.to go and hammer the bowlers. This would give a lot of flexibiltiy in the lower order aswell.

You see the recent ODI against England where India lost, India lost 4 early wickets, in that match, Jadeja and MSD couldn't play their natural game even after the 40th over because there was a pressure of preserving their wickets aswell, this led to them consuming more deliveries and we were 15-20 runs short though they batted so well. If we have a strong lower order, than the rebuilding of innings can be done more effectively, when we loose early wickets, we can send Jadeja ahead of both Raina and Yusuf and then when the team reaches a decent total, they can try to increase the run rate instead of preserving their wickets because there are 2 good batsmen who can come in and increase the run rate.

And I agree Yusuf shouldn't be batting higher in the order, number 7 is perfect for him, all i was trying to say was that its difficult to bat at number and expecting a player to be consistent at that number would not be smart.

 

[sumantra]

A group of players are getting special treatment,
it includes Rohit Sharma, M Vijay, RP Singh, Harbhajan Singh, Ashish Nehra, SK Raina,etc.

While there is another set of players who are being sidelined purposely,
R Uthappa, Irfan Pathan, Ambati Rayudu, Dinesh Karthik, Yusuf Pathan,etc.

Don't know where Indian cricket is going under these corrupt bunch of idiots, MSD included.

yes, this is more or less decided by dhoni...well, it might be a blessing in disguise, this pathetic show in england...all i am hoping for is dhoni to have less things to decide...

 

[karan316]

yes, this is more or less decided by dhoni...well, it might be a blessing in disguise, this pathetic show in england...all i am hoping for is dhoni to have less things to decide...

I don't think Dhoni will loose control as long as Shrikant is the chariman of selectors and Shrinivasan is the BCCI secretary.

 

[sumantra]

I don't think Dhoni will loose control as long as Shrikant is the chariman of selectors and Shrinivasan is the BCCI secretary.

well, i think, frankly, he is actually losing some of the control already, in his high time, he would not have agreed to have Dravid in the ODIs for sure...no doubt, it has got a lot to do with the horrible show in england...

 

[truth]

well, i think, frankly, he is actually losing some of the control already, in his high time, he would not have agreed to have Dravid in the ODIs for sure...no doubt, it has got a lot to do with the horrible show in england...

Read this

SC allows Srinivasan to take over as BCCI chief - Indian Express

Rules are changed for N Shrinivasan to become the BCCI president, wonder how corrupt our system is,
No wonder MSD will have the upper hand for some more time due to his good relations with Shrinivasan. There were anyways a lot of allegations on Shrinivasan of fixing the umpires, IPL auctions,etc. and has also helped players close to him ,Lalit Modi was even ready to provide proof against him regarding the IPL allegations on him.
Don't know where Indian cricket is going.

 

[karan316]

Read this

SC allows Srinivasan to take over as BCCI chief - Indian Express

Rules are changed for N Shrinivasan to become the BCCI president, wonder how corrupt our system is,
No wonder MSD will have the upper hand for some more time due to his good relations with Shrinivasan. There were anyways a lot of allegations on Shrinivasan of fixing the umpires, IPL auctions,etc. and has also helped players close to him ,Lalit Modi was even ready to provide proof against him regarding the IPL allegations on him.
Don't know where Indian cricket is going.

What the hell man Shrinivasan was not allowed to be the BCCI chief because of his CSK ownership issue, these idiots changed the rules for him, I was happy that he would never become the president of BCCI, but now he is. What a corrupt system we have.

 

[vic_orthdox]

England's rise to No. 1: England have a responsibility to win - Flintoff | England Cricket Features | ESPN Cricinfo

That question over attitude is something the India coach, Duncan Fletcher, may be questioning after his side slumped to defeat after defeat this summer. Having played the best years of his England career under Fletcher as coach, Flintoff was surprised with what he saw this summer.

"I saw the way in which England prepared I watched them doing their slip catching practice. Balls were fizzing everywhere, they were catching, they were diving diving. Next to them was India and the ball spent more time on the floor than it did in their hands, and Duncan was taking that. I used to do it with Duncan and he used to go mad if you dropped a ball. So I don't know if coaching is a young man's game now."

 

[kate29]

There have been a lot of weird selections by the current selection committee,
India won the world cup majorly because of the players that were groomed under Sourav Ganguly and Rahul Dravid combined with MSD's captaincy. But there are hardly any players which are looking good for long term out of the current selections, and some players are given chances in bits and pieces and then dropped.