Is Stokes the most overrated player in the history of cricket?

[Red]

Stewart was a hack keeper-batsman. One of the worst decisions made in a crap era for England was giving him the gloves. if they’d stuck with Russell and let Stewart just bat in the top three he’d have been a total gun.

So true. If Stewart hadn't been forced to take the gloves he'd be remembered as a great opening bat.

 

[Furball]

Must have let my personal judgement get in the way then. Cook and Anderson should get high praises for durability and temperament but that's about it.

You don't take 533 wickets without being a special bowler.

 

[Red]

No it isn't true. It is a common misconception that overlooks that Stewart was weak as piss against spin no matter how much he smashed fastest bowling. When not keeping, Stewart mostly opened, and smashed fast bowlers for the first umpteen overs instead of having to face spinners. As such his averages are disproportionate, but easily explained.

Stewart was dynamite against the fastest bowler, but a walking wicket against a useful spinner.

Stewart's average in the top 3 was something in the mid-high 40s. When he batted from 4-6 it was in the low 30s.

With the gloves he averaged 34, without he averaged 46.

And while Warne got him the most times, spinners certainly dont overrepresent the bowlers who dismissed him most by any means:

HowSTAT! Test Cricket - Analysis of Batting Dismissals

 

[GoodAreasShane]

Anderson averages 34.55 in the Ashes, can't see how he would even come close to ATG status on those numbers. Bear in mind that average would likely be even worse had Smith enforced the follow on in Adelaide.

 

[cnerd123]

Anderson averages 34.55 in the Ashes, can't see how he would even come close to ATG status on those numbers. Bear in mind that average would likely be even worse had Smith enforced the follow on in Adelaide.

He's still an ATVG because the Ashes don't matter and aren't the pinnacle of Test cricket, least of all during his career

 

[Black_Warrior]

Can ATVG not be a thing please? Cricket Web has a glorious legacy of expanding the Cricketing Lexicon. We gave the cricket world the term 'flat track bully'. Let's not ruin that please

 

[Mr Miyagi]

Can ATVG not be a thing please? Cricket Web has a glorious legacy of expanding the Cricketing Lexicon. We gave the cricket world the term 'flat track bully'. Let's not ruin that please

Sorry to disapoint you but...

CMJ: Cricketing immortals welcome 'flat-track bully' into ranks (1 Jun 1998) | Cricket | ESPNcricinfo

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/2378636/Hick-back-to-bullying-best.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/sport/cricket/817772.stm

The BBC gives it to John Bracewell, but I am not convinced he started it, or whether he simply was the first to be reported using it.

But Hick was here in NZ in 1987/88 and 1988/89 iirc. And Bracewell retired in 1990.

 

[Burgey]

Thought that article was was about gavaskar’s induction to the hall of fame.

 

[TheJediBrah]

Can ATVG not be a thing please? Cricket Web has a glorious legacy of expanding the Cricketing Lexicon. We gave the cricket world the term 'flat track bully'. Let's not ruin that please

You really think this site invented 'flat track bully'?

 

[Mr Miyagi]

You really think this site invented 'flat track bully'?

Well the BBC thinks Bracewell coined it - I am not convinced but the BBC is often reliable, so don't be too harsh on the poor guy.

 

[Black_Warrior]

At least in terms of online usage and making it mainstream. Never had it heard it used at a mass level before this forum

 

[Adders]

Can ATVG not be a thing please?

Nah ATVG is an awesome introduction and whoever coined it has made a great contribution.

It is perfect for describing those that were greats in their generation but would never be in an ATG discussion.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

At least in terms of online usage and making it mainstream. Never had it heard it used at a mass level before this forum

The reason Bracewell got so much press with it in the late 1980's is because Hick was doing a qualification time before debuting for England. Huge things were expected of him after his 405* and he was absolutely smashing it in NZ too.

Cricket fans in England were counting down till Hick was eligible to play and Bracewell comes along and calls him a flat-track bully. Huge news. Then to make matters worse, Hick's career at international level went the way it did, and the phrase continued to haunt him.

The phrase extends beyond cricket today, and is used by AFL and football. Like I say, I am not convinced that Bracewell coined it himself, but he may have as he does get a lot of credit for it, but if Hick had been a regular international success, the phrase may not have caught on as much.

Many things are said about John Bracewell but it is difficult to deny that he was bold and spoke freely, even if it caused him to retire early as Martin Crowe reportedly did not want him to be in the team once he was captain, and let him know as much.

 

[cnerd123]

Bracewell stole it from CW

 

[OverratedSanity]

CW gave the world 'dire'

 

[Burgey]

At least in terms of online usage and making it mainstream. Never had it heard it used at a mass level before this forum

It was a mass debate here about it.

 

[Mr Miyagi]

CW gave the world 'dire'

In before Burgey or JediBrah claims that the subcontent gave the world 'diarrhoea'

 

[NUFAN]

Nah ATVG is an awesome introduction and whoever coined it has made a great contribution.

It is perfect for describing those that were greats in their generation but would never be in an ATG discussion.

I assume it stands for all time Very good？its weird to change the G for all time great and replace it with good, because it cant be all time very great cause that sounds wrong and I guess makes them seem even better than an ATG.

Anyway.. Stokes is good, very good in fact.

 

[a massive zebra]

I assume it stands for all time Very good？its weird to change the G for all time great and replace it with good, because it cant be all time very great cause that sounds wrong and I guess makes them seem even better than an ATG.

Anyway.. Stokes is good, very good in fact.

Bradman could be an all time very great because he was indeed much better than a typical all time great standard player.

 

[Burgey]

He is indeed. England is in awful strife in this match, it he’s taken a couple of useful poles and put another bloke in hospital. That’s handy from a fifth bowler.