Is Ricky Ponting a better batsman than Brian Lara?

[bagapath]

Nice try

I knew you wouldnt disagree

 

[Ikki]

Well, in your opinion, then, who was it?

 

[bagapath]

tendulkar>waugh>lara>ponting

this is purely based on observation. for statistical support

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

but that is not the be all of everything anyway

 

[Ikki]

That's too wide of a net. Murali does not come with a great attack, even if he was great. Same with when Tendulkar faced Warne, when he was poor. Lara, who failed against all bar 1 of those attacks ends up averaging 52 because of it. The composition of matches play a role. For example, Lara averages highly because he played 1 attack much more than the others, and that was the only attack he succeeded against. Similarly with Tendulkar who succeeded against mostly an inferior Australian attack and the West Indies, while failing against the other two attacks he could face; S.Africa and Pakistan; he ends up averging 63.

I just love it how people who constantly harp about using stats being misleading, and then when they use it are the worst offenders.

 

[bagapath]

okay ikki. go ahead and cherry pick the stats any which way you want and prove to yourself that only aussie cricketers are best. you will not stop otherwise.

i am okay with that link i have given. it says everything i want to know.

 

[Ikki]

okay ikki. go ahead and cherry pick the stats any which way you want and prove to yourself that only aussie cricketers are best. you will not stop otherwise.

i am okay with that link i have given. it says everything i want to know.

LOL, you are the one who is cherry picking, how do you think Lara averages 52 there?

He averages in the 30s against India at home, averages in the 30s against both Pakistan and S.Africa...in fact the only attack he averages higher than 50 is Australia. So how did he do it? When you know the answer to that you will know what I mean.

That last bolded part is key for me .

 

[bagapath]

ikki... enjoy your evening wherever you are in australia.... i have nothing else to tell you....

 

[Ikkki]

Ridiculous thread this.Punty not even in the league of BRIAN CHARLES LARA. Brian carried the whole West Indies team all by himself. Punty after the retirement of greats has struggled badly.Ricky 'I can't play spin to save my life' Ponting is overhyped and overrated by the stupid Australian media.

 

[Prince EWS]

Ridiculous thread this.Punty not even in the league of BRIAN CHARLES LARA. Brian carried the whole West Indies team all by himself. Punty after the retirement of greats has struggled badly.Ricky 'I can't play spin to save my life' Ponting is overhyped and overrated by the stupid Australian media.

LOL @ choice of username.

 

[Uppercut]

tendulkar>waugh>lara>ponting

this is purely based on observation. for statistical support

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

but that is not the be all of everything anyway

Genuine question this: Considering that they all get out a fairly equal number of times for a fair equal amount of runs, why does the fact that Tendulkar gets out proportionally more often to bad bowlers than the others make him a better player?

Oh- almost forgot- interesting analysis, that

 

[honestbharani]

LOL, you are the one who is cherry picking, how do you think Lara averages 52 there?

He averages in the 30s against India at home, averages in the 30s against both Pakistan and S.Africa...in fact the only attack he averages higher than 50 is Australia. So how did he do it? When you know the answer to that you will know what I mean.

That last bolded part is key for me .

you do understand that the 30 is from one series of 3 tests in early 94... how in the hell is that anything to go by?

 

[Ikkki]

Australians underrate Lara only because he made their great mcgrath & Warne look like kids .I bet SK Warne and Mcgrath must have had nightmares because of the prince.Punty struggles against spinners and good swing bowlers. And a last piece of advice for yall - WATCH THE MATCHES;DON'T MAKE CONCLUSIONS OFF STATSGURU.

 

[GIMH]

haha, who is this?

 

[honestbharani]

Nothing is ever conclusively proven. Just as I can argue that despite the fact that Ponting did poorly against average bowlers in India; everywhere else and against every spinner he did as good if not better than Lara. Whilst Lara had trouble against the likes of Kumble and Vettori. It's all arguable.

Ponting scored 104 in Bridgetown against Ambrose and Walsh; all his tests against the WIndies they were together and he averages 40 against them.

And 197 against Wasim, Saqlain and a young Akhtar, averages 50 against Pakistan. And clearly played S.Africa well. Still a far cry from averaging 30s, even if you were to add Waqar to that list - who Ponting did actually face later in the 00s in those harsh neutral tests.

Also, how did Lara do against India in India? So even if you want to argue that India in India should count, Lara still only has a solitary success against Australia. Failure against the 3 others. Ponting failed in India, but succeeded against the 3 others. It's all arguable, but IMO that's pretty conclusive amongst greats.

I don't want to harp on the same thing again and again but here goes..


Lara averages something like 36 against Ws including a series (albeit at home) against the Ws at their very zenith and an away series where by all accounts there was so much disharmony within the team that there is no way the man at the centre of it was going to do too much... (See Windies in South Africa in 98 again for the same stuff..) Ponting got 3 ducks and a 197 against an attack with Wasim in it, albeit well past his best.. How is that comparable?


Ponting averages little less than 40 against Windies (Walsh and Ambrose) and against an attack of comparable quality, Lara averages in excess of 50 against McWarne + plus other good bowlers.. The attacks Ponting faced had Walsh and Ambrose and then zilch.


Ponting averages tailenderesque in India where Lara inspite of 30 (one series VERY early in his career, not enough for me, but u keep bringing it up) and even considering juz the 90s (4 tests or something for Ponting) he still averages lesser.


The only real win AFAIC here is against Donald but this is offset by the fact that Ponting has a middling record Vs Windies (late 90s Windies means juz 2 great bowlers followed by buffet bowlers) whereas Lara averages 52+ with a SR of 60+ against the best attack(McWarne juz as dangerous as Ambrose/Walsh for me and Australia EASILY had the better support bowlers) with even less support from his own batsmen...


And I am not even bringing up the off field stuff and the fact that Ponting played in a better team than Lara, which meant most of the time, less pressure on him from a team PoV...

 

[vic_orthdox]

Australians underrate Lara only because he made their great mcgrath & Warne look like kids .I bet SK Warne and Mcgrath must have had nightmares because of the prince.Punty struggles against spinners and good swing bowlers. And a last piece of advice for yall - WATCH THE MATCHES;DON'T MAKE CONCLUSIONS OFF STATSGURU.

Never thought that Australians underrate Lara, be extremely surprised if that was a perception held by many.

 

[honestbharani]

tendulkar>waugh>lara>ponting

this is purely based on observation. for statistical support

Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com

but that is not the be all of everything anyway

lol bagapath.. there is a small mistake in your query.. Since u include blokes like Kumble, it is basically taking every test India played in the period into account.


I KNEW Sachin never scored a double against the bowlers mentioned...

 

[honestbharani]

Never thought that Australians underrate Lara, be extremely surprised if that was a perception held by many.

Well, Ikki's views are not representative of all Aussies and honestly, I don't think Ikki underestimates Lara at all.. Perhaps he juz overestimates Ponting.. at least in my opinion..

 

[Ikkki]

If you want stats have a look at what Punty averages after retirements of Mcgrath & SK. Something around 40 now that he can no longer hide behind Langer, Hayden & that too in an era of flat pitches and rubbish bowlers. Lara played in a weaker team throughout his career and averages 53 in better pitches and against far better bowlers. Punty is just an overrated flat pitch bully who can't even win the Ashes

 

[Ikki]

you do understand that the 30 is from one series of 3 tests in early 94... how in the hell is that anything to go by?

Mate, we are talking about 4 different instances against which attacks have been compiled for; in India against India; S.African attack; Pakistani attack; and Australian attack. Lara averages in the 30s for 3 of these 4 attacks, so it's not just 1 series worth. So, the point is, diluting his success with Australia with the other 3 makes it seem like he actually succeeded against these attacks when he didn't. Because he played Australia much more than the others it hides this fact.

As for the obvious Troll; I consider Lara, Tendulkar, Ponting, Waugh and all these batsmen of the same ilk. That's why you see me ranting; because people are actually leaving out Ponting when he has just as good as case as these, for reasons like "he didn't look as good at the crease". I never once contended that Lara, nor Tendulkar, aren't greats and aren't comparable. The only contention is, no one can reasonably say that these 3 aren't close. There is no daylight between any of them.

P.S. Ponting averages 39.71 against Ambrose and Walsh. That isn't a little less, really, it's 2 runs away from averaging 40 which is a wholly acceptable figure. That's why the round-up should be pretty straight-forward.

 

[honestbharani]

Juz to show how fallible stats are.. I took Kumble out of the queried list of bowlers by Bagapath and this is what I got..


Batting records | Test matches | Cricinfo Statsguru | Cricinfo.com



Ponting well down, for some reason..