Is AB de Villiers an ATG?

[centurymaker]

Some people do include Hadlee over McGrath for team balance reasons.

Gilchrist was the best overall keeper/batsman in history. He changed the way the game is played. A keeper will almost always need to bat in a game.

When a team has 4 ATG bowlers, any part time bowler isn't going to get much of the ball. Hence all-rounders are not as useful in ATG teams. Which is why in such teams the batting of the top 6 is the most important factor in their inclusion.

I'd easily take Lara or Tendulkar in an ATXI over Kallis, simply because I rate them higher as batsmen.

This too I totally agree with.

 

[centurymaker]

Nah, If you're talking all forms combined, Clarke was probably a marginally better Test bat than AB, but AB a zillion time better white ball bat. So even with a a strong weighting in favour of Test cricket, it's hard not to see AB> Clarke for me overall.

Same with Amla vs. AB, although in their case Amla is closer as a white-ball bat, but AB still ahead overall.

Agree with AB being ahead overall in comparison to Clarke because of his ODI exploits. (but AB is yet to deliver a WC for his country or any big tournament in limited overs for that matter, so I can't give him as much credit as a select few are giving him, its unwarranted. He is not the best ODI batsman. He is a 'borderline' top 5 ODI batsman of all time! And he has to deliver in 2019 wc to stake a higher claim. Otherwise talent alone is not enough to warrant him a free ride.

 

[Bolo]

Some people do include Hadlee over McGrath for team balance reasons.

Gilchrist was the best overall keeper/batsman in history. He changed the way the game is played. A keeper will almost always need to bat in a game.

When a team has 4 ATG bowlers, any part time bowler isn't going to get much of the ball. Hence all-rounders are not as useful in ATG teams. Which is why in such teams the batting of the top 6 is the most important factor in their inclusion.

I'd easily take Lara or Tendulkar in an ATXI over Kallis, simply because I rate them higher as batsmen.

You are going to want a 5th bowler in just about every match. This may not necessarily be to pick up a bunch of wickets, but the importance of takings load off the front 4 is big. Having fresh legs on quicks makes a difference and you want to avoid injuries to avoid a three man attack in the current game and having to bench an injured (or just exhausted) atg for the next game.

You have to have somebody who is at least a passable part-timer in there if you are looking at anything more than just a one-off test. I guess that you could make the argument that the disadvantage in Tendulkar's part-timers is less than the advantage of his batting compared to Kallis, but the clutch level of wickets Kallis used to pick up (even if it was usually only about 1 a match) still needs some weight.

Kallis above Tendulkar or Lara in a world in which Sobers never existed for me, but Sobers makes Kallis a bit irrelevant.

 

[centurymaker]

Nah, If you're talking all forms combined, Clarke was probably a marginally better Test bat than AB, but AB a zillion time better white ball bat. So even with a a strong weighting in favour of Test cricket, it's hard not to see AB> Clarke for me overall.

Same with Amla vs. AB, although in their case Amla is closer as a white-ball bat, but AB still ahead overall.

As for Amla v AB, Amla is a better batsman overall as he is comfortably better in test cricket and far more reliable and batsman for all conditions even though he may be in decline now having dominated for years. And often had to face the new ball. ABD in contrast 'tended' to cash in later on against an older ball or tiring attacks or even smaller sides for most of his career, although having to keep the wickets may have affected him. Regardless of that, he is not close to being an ATG as a test batsman, whereas Amla is or at least borderline Atg in tests.

Plus Amla's ODI record is crazy and 'similar' to AB even though AB is significantly better,

Just like how AB's record may be close to Amla in Tests but Amla is comfortably better!! (so shouldn't get too preoccupied with raw figures).

Gap between the two in tests may be slightly less than it is in ODIs but I tend to give a two-thirds weighting to test cricket (others may give 3/4 or 4/5 weightage or even more) so Amla is ahead without doubt for me. Its just that some people are giving too much value to his stroke making and talent.

 

[centurymaker]

You are going to want a 5th bowler in just about every match. This may not necessarily be to pick up a bunch of wickets, but the importance of takings load off the front 4 is big. Having fresh legs on quicks makes a difference and you want to avoid injuries to avoid a three man attack in the current game and having to bench an injured (or just exhausted) atg for the next game.

You have to have somebody who is at least a passable part-timer in there if you are looking at anything more than just a one-off test. I guess that you could make the argument that the disadvantage in Tendulkar's part-timers is less than the advantage of his batting compared to Kallis, but the clutch level of wickets Kallis used to pick up (even if it was usually only about 1 a match) still needs some weight.

Kallis above Tendulkar or Lara in a world in which Sobers never existed for me, but Sobers makes Kallis a bit irrelevant.

That why you have Sobers at 6 and thats that for the 5th bowling option. Don't even need to look at his bowling. He makes the cut with his batting alone.

 

[centurymaker]

South Africa haven't even come close to winning a single ICC tournament, so how AB can be seen at a top 3 ODI bat in beyond me. Kohli on the other hand has taken India very close on a few occasions already (at times singlehandedly, and of course won it in 2011 although it can't be attributed it to him)

AB has had a dozen opportunities, especially with the T20 world cup held every 2 years,
2007, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016...
Add in the Icc champions trophies and then the world cups too.. and he has had around a dozen opportunities, yet SA haven't even come CLOSE ever!

Kinda sound like im hating on AB but I'm just stating blatant facts. He is a freak batsman talent wise but has underperformed a lot. If I had to put money on a batsman to lead my side to glory in an icc tournament, I would always pick Kohli, Viv, Tendulkar, Dhoni ahead of him and even Ponting.

 

[Bolo]

As for Amla v AB, Amla is a better batsman overall as he is comfortably better in test cricket and far more reliable and batsman for all conditions even though he may be in decline now having dominated for years. And often had to face the new ball. ABD in contrast 'tended' to cash in later on against an older ball or tiring attacks or even smaller sides for most of his career, although having to keep the wickets may have affected him. Regardless of that, he is not close to being an ATG as a test batsman, whereas Amla is or at least borderline Atg in tests.

Plus Amla's ODI record is crazy and 'similar' to AB even though AB is significantly better,

Just like how AB's record may be close to Amla in Tests but Amla is comfortably better!! (so shouldn't get too preoccupied with raw figures).

Gap between the two in tests may be slightly less than it is in ODIs but I tend to give a two-thirds weighting to test cricket (others may give 3/4 or 4/5 weightage or even more) so Amla is ahead without doubt for me. Its just that some people are giving too much value to his stroke making and talent.

Not a huge amount to choose between Amla an AB as test batman. Similar records on the whole. Amla was way ahead of AB in the early parts of their careers, both in terms of number of runs and clutch quality of runs, but AB pulled both of these to parity and ahead of Amla over time.

Slight edge to Amla on batting position alone, and maybe countered by ABs versatility in the field and time as a wk.

Huge difference to me in ODIs, both in numbers and quality of runs. Most of Amla's runs have come against weak attacks or meaningless games. AB does it under all conditions. And the difference in strike rate is enourmous.

Neither are atg test bats in my book, although they are both close.

Both are atg ODI bats, but Amla only by a small margin, while AB (together with Viv) is streets ahead of anyone else.

 

[Bolo]

South Africa haven't even come close to winning a single ICC tournament, so how AB can be seen at a top 3 ODI bat in beyond me. Kohli on the other hand has taken India very close on a few occasions already (at times singlehandedly, and of course won it in 2011 although it can't be attributed it to him)

AB has had a dozen opportunities, especially with the T20 world cup held every 2 years,
2007, 2009, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016...
Add in the Icc champions trophies and then the world cups too.. and he has had around a dozen opportunities, yet SA haven't even come CLOSE ever!

Kinda sound like im hating on AB but I'm just stating blatant facts. He is a freak batsman talent wise but has underperformed a lot. If I had to put money on a batsman to lead my side to glory in an icc tournament, I would always pick Kohli, Viv, Tendulkar, Dhoni ahead of him and even Ponting.

Cricket is a team game. Look at ABs world cup record. It is staggering. He's failed in some big games, but he's also succeeded only to have the team fail around him. The last wk he made about 60 from 40 in the semis, which absolutely was a match winning innings, except the bowling imploded and lost the match.

It's no good amalgamating T20 and ODIs. AB isn't an atg T20i player- he's barely bothered even play the format for most of his career.

And blanket grouping ICC events isn't much use either. South Africa have won one of those (1st edition of champions trophy, called something else at the time). Meaningless victory though, cos it was not an ODI WC.

 

[StephenZA]

Cricket is a team game. Look at ABs world cup record. It is staggering. He's failed in some big games, but he's also succeeded only to have the team fail around him. The last wk he made about 60 from 40 in the semis, which absolutely was a match winning innings, except the bowling imploded and lost the match.

It's no good amalgamating T20 and ODIs. AB isn't an atg T20i player- he's barely bothered even play the format for most of his career.

And blanket grouping ICC events isn't much use either. South Africa have won one of those (1st edition of champions trophy, called something else at the time). Meaningless victory though, cos it was not an ODI WC.

Around here players are only considered ODI ATG's if they performed at a WC and probably led their team to victory. Hence why Klusener is often talked about in ATG ODI's because he carried SA during the 1999 WC.

 

[Bolo]

Around here players are only considered ODI ATG's if they performed at a WC and probably led their team to victory. Hence why Klusener is often talked about in ATG ODI's because he carried SA during the 1999 WC.

Kluseners 99 was almost certainly the greatest individual WC performance, but ABs 2015 makes a good argument for being the second greatest.

Both times RSA got knocked out of the semis after a great batting performance by each of the respective players. Had the team added a bit more, each would have been a matchwinning knock.

 

[Victor Ian]

It seems a bit silly to require a WC to call a player great. Was Faulkner great? Would we be calling Tendulkar almost great, if he had not won that WC in 11?.

 

[centurymaker]

ABD at the 2015 world cup

Faced 3 good teams in Ind, Pak & NZ

30 v Ind (lost) chasing 300
70+ v Pak in a 220 run chase (lost)
65 v NZ in a high scoring 40-over semi (lost)

Good world cup, but not really special. He was outperformed in the semifinal by others including Miller, who almost scored 50 in 18 balls, in the final overs at the Eden Box(Park) in Auckland. However, batting at eden box is ridiculous, you can get caught out early on -quite easily if you don't adjust because fielders are so close to you ..or you can smack 4s & 6s with ease because ground size is a joke (I've been there ftr).

South Africa had the misfortune of playing twice at Eden Box.. losing to both Pak and NZ. But nobody is ever able to get them across the line in big games. They have to come short everytime in every tournament. In the last icc champions trophy, got knocked out early by India after getting bowled out for a small total in the first innings on a flat pitch.

In big tournament games, they simply lack the mentality and even the nerve to get the team over the line.

 

[centurymaker]

It seems a bit silly to require a WC to call a player great. Was Faulkner great? Would we be calling Tendulkar almost great, if he had not won that WC in 11?.

At least come close to winning one. South Africa haven't gotten close despite their immensely strong teams.

Tendulkar had already been exceptional in multiple world cups. And he led India to 2 world cup finals with notable contributions from him, including player of the tournament in 2003.
Also Top batsman in 1996 WC, where India ended up choking in semi final run chase. And he didn't even get a chance to feature in half a dozen T20 world cups like ABD. He had far fewer opportunities yet he did deliver. Kohli too has delivered (in T20 world cups), Viv delivered too!! Dhoni likewise.

ABD not quite. 2019 world cup is make or break for him.. The margins are thin between the top batsman and the very top batsman, icc tournaments are always a factor in determining who stands where.

 

[sunilz]

Dhoni has extremely mediocre record in ICC tournament except WC final 2011.
Moreover he doesn't have a century outside Asia. He is not in same league of Viv, kohli, Sachin, ABD as pure batsman

 

[Bolo]

ABD at the 2015 world cup

Faced 3 good teams in Ind, Pak & NZ

30 v Ind (lost) chasing 300
70+ v Pak in a 220 run chase (lost)
65 v NZ in a high scoring 40-over semi (lost)

Good world cup, but not really special. He was outperformed in the semifinal by others including Miller, who almost scored 50 in 18 balls, in the final overs at the Eden Box(Park) in Auckland. However, batting at eden box is ridiculous, you can get caught out early on -quite easily if you don't adjust because fielders are so close to you ..or you can smack 4s & 6s with ease because ground size is a joke (I've been there ftr).

South Africa had the misfortune of playing twice at Eden Box.. losing to both Pak and NZ. But nobody is ever able to get them across the line in big games. They have to come short everytime in every tournament. In the last icc champions trophy, got knocked out early by India after getting bowled out for a small total in the first innings on a flat pitch.

In big tournament games, they simply lack the mentality and even the nerve to get the team over the line.

Tournament record: average 96 strike rate 144.

Quarter finals DNB.
Semi finals 65* from 45.

You can't really ask him to do more than this in knockouts. He outperformed everyone except Miller by a significant margin in his only chance to bat, and it was a great batting performance, one of the best in setting a total in the knockout rounds. Maybe not one of the highest scores, but the match was truncated with him at the crease going hell for leather, and he ended up not out.

That is a spectacular tournament. When you are picking scores of 70, 65 and 30 as evidence that he failed (rather than that his team failed around him), your argument is getting extremely weak.

He has the best overall wk record as an individual batsman. No, he hasn't carried South Africa over the line in the final rounds. But again, it's a team game. Remember Gilchrist's WC winning innings vs Sri Lanka? He was dross the whole tournament, the rest of the team carried him there. Dhoni 2011- same thing.

I don't think ABs WC record should particularly be used to argue he is the GOAT, because winning counts, but it's also not something you can use to argue that he is not the GOAT considering how well he has performed as an individual.

 

[stephen]

Yeah and he was the key wicket in that huge run chase against Australia in 2007. With him at the crease South Africa looked like chasing the total down. Then he was run out by that freak boundary throw by Watson while absolutely set and SA fell apart after that.

ABDV had well and truly done enough in World Cups.

 

[RK_123]

ABD at the 2015 world cup

Faced 3 good teams in Ind, Pak & NZ

30 v Ind (lost) chasing 300
70+ v Pak in a 220 run chase (lost)
65 v NZ in a high scoring 40-over semi (lost)

Good world cup, but not really special. He was outperformed in the semifinal by others including Miller, who almost scored 50 in 18 balls, in the final overs at the Eden Box(Park) in Auckland. However, batting at eden box is ridiculous, you can get caught out early on -quite easily if you don't adjust because fielders are so close to you ..or you can smack 4s & 6s with ease because ground size is a joke (I've been there ftr).

South Africa had the misfortune of playing twice at Eden Box.. losing to both Pak and NZ. But nobody is ever able to get them across the line in big games. They have to come short everytime in every tournament. In the last icc champions trophy, got knocked out early by India after getting bowled out for a small total in the first innings on a flat pitch.

In big tournament games, they simply lack the mentality and even the nerve to get the team over the line.

You have to understand that his 65 vs NZ was well on its way to get converted into a 60 ball 100 if rain hasn't come. He was batting brilliantly at 65 off 45 balls and rain faded things for SA. Still SA ended with impressive total and that game was choked by bowlers not batsmen who failed to defend a huge total of 300 in a 43 overs game.

He already has a 70 ball 92 vs Australia in WC 2007 where he smashed McGrath for three consecutive boundaries in his first over spell.

Against India, he got run-out in 2015 WC match.

 

[RK_123]

At least come close to winning one. South Africa haven't gotten close despite their immensely strong teams.

Tendulkar had already been exceptional in multiple world cups. And he led India to 2 world cup finals with notable contributions from him, including player of the tournament in 2003.
Also Top batsman in 1996 WC, where India ended up choking in semi final run chase. And he didn't even get a chance to feature in half a dozen T20 world cups like ABD. He had far fewer opportunities yet he did deliver. Kohli too has delivered (in T20 world cups), Viv delivered too!! Dhoni likewise.

ABD not quite. 2019 world cup is make or break for him.. The margins are thin between the top batsman and the very top batsman, icc tournaments are always a factor in determining who stands where.

Dhoni failed in every ICC tournament except 2011 WC final where Gambhir's performance outperformed his. It is hard to understand what you are spouting.

 

[RK_123]

Also, bringing t20s in Odis makes no sense. We are talking about Ab de Villiers - the odi batsmen. Nobody cares about t20s except some SC fans maybe.

 

[RK_123]

As for Amla v AB, Amla is a better batsman overall as he is comfortably better in test cricket and far more reliable and batsman for all conditions even though he may be in decline now having dominated for years. And often had to face the new ball. <B>ABD in contrast 'tended' to cash in later on against an older ball or tiring attacks or even smaller sides for most of his career</B>, although having to keep the wickets may have affected him. Regardless of that, he is not close to being an ATG as a test batsman, whereas Amla is or at least borderline Atg in tests.

Plus Amla's ODI record is crazy and 'similar' to AB even though AB is significantly better,

Just like how AB's record may be close to Amla in Tests but Amla is comfortably better!! (so shouldn't get too preoccupied with raw figures).

Gap between the two in tests may be slightly less than it is in ODIs but I tend to give a two-thirds weighting to test cricket (others may give 3/4 or 4/5 weightage or even more) so Amla is ahead without doubt for me. Its just that some people are giving too much value to his stroke making and talent.

Well, you clearly hate ABD. Even in tests, he has performed against top quality bowling attack(remember red hot Johnson in 2014), he has chased a 400 odd in Australia, played a match-saving inning through blockathon in Adelaide, he also came close to chasing a 458 vs India once( drew that game) and in previous series, played counter- attacking innings when mattered against so-called fresh bowlers at 12-3 and 3-2 and didn't even boosted stats in dead rubber LOL..