Indian Cricket Dhaba

[vcs]

That's because Lyon is a better bowler.

I wouldn't mind picking Jadeja as the lone spinner tbh even though I don't think he has a real match turning spell in him either.

The problem with comparing Ashwin and Lyon is that their strengths and weaknesses have very little overlap, even though they are both off spinners.

You would much rather have Ashwin in Asia and you'd take Lyon in Australia/NZ/England (arguably, can't remember Lyon doing too much damage there). It's hard to make the case that the guy averaging 6 points more is the better bowler.

 

[honestbharani]

He is not. OS just hates Ashwin. You should know that by now.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The problem with comparing Ashwin and Lyon is that their strengths and weaknesses have very little overlap, even though they are both off spinners.

You would much rather have Ashwin in Asia and you'd take Lyon in Australia/NZ/England (arguably, can't remember Lyon doing too much damage there). It's hard to make the case that the guy averaging 6 points more is the better bowler.

I used to think so as well, but how much do you think the gap would be if Ashwin wasn't dropped/unfit so often? He's only played 20 matches outside Asia in a decade long career. I don't think a straight up a vs b average comparison can be made here.

Also think Lyon in general does the boring parts of a spinners role i.e. bowling long reliable spells to give the pacers a rest better than Ashwin does.

Plus I'm not even saying Lyon has had a more impressive career than Ashwin has, but I do think he's better right now because he does a job in basically any conditions in a way Ashwin can't imo. In the last couple of years Ashwin averages 25 odd, and Lyon around 31,which are basically identical to their career averages but I just think Lyon has bowled better in this span. Even you'd admit Ashwin isn't as good as he was in 2016 despite averaging about the same.

 

[Daemon]

Excellent, this is exactly where I wanted the discussion to go.

Ashwin is clearly the best in Asia but a few spinners here and there have matched him - Jadeja, Herath, Yasir and even Lyon himself when he figured out how to bowl here. But no other spinner has been doing well outside of Asia besides Lyon. Maharaj threatened for a bit but isn’t looking great these days.

 

[honestbharani]

I think Ashwin has looked like matching Lyon here and there in the past two seasons (since 2017-2018 season) outside Asia as well. Its just that his injuries flared up at the wrong time. Hopefully if he can stay fit, I think he will prove he is the best test match spinner in the game currently.

 

[vcs]

I used to think so as well, but how much do you think the gap would be if Ashwin wasn't dropped/unfit so often? He's only played 20 matches outside Asia in a decade long career. I don't think a straight up a vs b average comparison can be made here.

Also think Lyon in general does the boring parts of a spinners role i.e. bowling long reliable spells to give the pacers a rest better than Ashwin does.

Plus I'm not even saying Lyon has had a more impressive career than Ashwin has, but I do think he's better right now because he does a job in basically any conditions in a way Ashwin can't imo. In the last couple of years Ashwin averages 25 odd, and Lyon around 31,which are basically identical to their career averages but I just think Lyon has bowled better in this span. Even you'd admit Ashwin isn't as good as he was in 2016 despite averaging about the same.

Excellent, this is exactly where I wanted the discussion to go.

Ashwin is clearly the best in Asia but a few spinners here and there have matched him - Jadeja, Herath, Yasir and even Lyon himself when he figured out how to bowl here. But no other spinner has been doing well outside of Asia besides Lyon. Maharaj threatened for a bit but isn’t looking great these days.

That's a fair enough point about Ashwin's injuries and getting dropped, even if I don't necessarily agree with the conclusion.

Yeah, he's certainly not as good as he was in 2016 though his numbers haven't taken a big hit. I do think he showed signs of being back at his best in the recent home season, even though he bowled at some abysmal batting lineups.

 

[honestbharani]

TBF, it was nulified by some absymal catching support for him.

 

[honestbharani]

I feel for the ODIs against RSA we should try some wholesale changes. Rest Kohli. I would even rest Rohit and let Rahul captain the side but I know its wishful thinking. Dhawan will hopefully still be injured so that we can take a look at some other guys.


Rohit (c)
Shaw
Manish
Shreyas
Rahul (wk)
Suryakumar Yadav
Gopal
Jadeja
Saini
2 new fast bowlers based on A performances

Hopefully we do not try Siraj, Shardul, Khaleel again for a while in this format. And Gowtham in the reserves.

 

[harsh.ag]

Yeah, let's screw over Bhuvi from LOs too

 

[Daemon]

Rohit
Dhawan
Hardik
Bhuvi
Ishant
Chahar
Kuldeep (finger I believe?)

That’s a lot of injuries.

 

[CricAddict]

Rohit
Dhawan
Hardik
Bhuvi
Ishant
Chahar
Kuldeep (finger I believe?)

That’s a lot of injuries.

Bumrah has just come back from injury as well. I just hope this wicketless series is just a one-off and not any loss in ability due to the injury.

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah, let's screw over Bhuvi from LOs too

Isn't he still injured?

 

[cnerd123]

Bumrah should have been rested for the NZ tour and been given the opportunity to regain match fitness in domestic cricket IMO

I suppose the benefit of him touring with the national side is access to top quality physios and stuff, and these guys know what they're doing and understand how to get the most out of every athlete. But he's got such a biomechanically weird action that I feel treating him like any other fast bowler is a bit risky. Would rather we err on the side of caution with him.

 

[h_hurricane]

Bumrah should not have been played in the ODI series considering there is an important test series coming up. ODIs should be the least important format, at least for the next year or so.

 

[ankitj]

Bumrah should sit out of IPL IMO.

 

[honestbharani]

I would simply rest Bumrah from the RSA ODIs and tell him to play lesser number of games in the IPL.

 

[cnerd123]

there's no way he's missing the IPL. That's the biggest pay-day in his career and also he's the biggest draw for the franchise and BCCI. I'm sure all those involved, except maybe Bumrah himself, would much rather he skip the WorldT20 after than miss the IPL.

 

[honestbharani]

I meant manage his workload in the IPL. I did not say he should not play the IPL.

 

[cnerd123]

was replying to ankitj

 

[OverratedSanity]

Bumrah should sit out of IPL IMO.

Bumrah should not have been played in the ODI series considering there is an important test series coming up. ODIs should be the least important format, at least for the next year or so.

Bumrah's already been on the sidelines for months. Imo the best thing for him is to play cricket regardless of format and get games under his belt. Sitting out a whole two months playing no cricket simply so you can say he's resting doesn't seem smart at this stage.