Indian Cricket Dhaba

[Daemon]

Kohli had the perfect storm going for him tbf - friendliest quick bowling era, result pitches, professionalism of coaching and infrastructure (in no small part thanks to the IPL directly as well as the money brought in by the IPL), increase in the awareness of fitness and nutrition in India etc.

So while obviously all that cannot be attributed to one man alone, he did no harm on his part with things like playing 4 fast bowlers (sometimes wrongly) overseas, forcing Bumrah down our throats when none of us wanted him in the Test series in SA, led by example with his 0.5% body fat obsession etc.

He's spoken multiple times of how trainings used to be unstructured and how people were mucking about all the time but now things are a lot sharper and focused. We'll never know how much of it is down to him but the frequency with which he speaks about it seems to be that he's helped influence that somewhat.

At the end of the day there's a limit to the influence a captain can have, but he's done well imo, or at the very least not done many things wrong with the fast men, Bhuvi aside.

 

[honestbharani]

Bhuvi aside.

On Bhuvi, I reckon it was stupid of him and management to play him in the LO games in 2018 before the tests. And he treated him stupidly in South Africa too. But for this year, I think they were very right in not picking him as he seems unable to get through even an IPL season without injury. He was injured in the WC too and that affected his rhythm as he came back for the semis. Has to be fitter, unfortunately, to play tests.

 

[Teja.]

In the second half of 00s, we had really horrible flat pitches which gave nothing to pacers. Guys like Pathan, Sree and Munaf who showed promise when there was something on offer crumbled due to being overbowled on 550 par pitches and never really recovered from having multiple injuries in their mid 20s.

 

[sunilz]

So , we have finally concluded that Kohli is a rubbish limited overs captain and must be removed. Thanks guys for participating in a very good debate.

 

[honestbharani]

So , we have finally concluded that Kohli is a rubbish limited overs captain

It will suck to be you after we win the WT20

Actually it will suck to be you anytime with such burning jealousy, hatred and bias for absolutely no reason.

 

[sunilz]

It will suck to be you after we win the WT20

Actually it will suck to be you anytime with such burning jealousy, hatred and bias for absolutely no reason.

Yeah no reason.
Loss in CT Final, WC SF and WTC Final doesn't count.?

 

[honestbharani]

Yeah no reason.
Loss in CT Final, WC SF and WTC Final doesn't count.?

LIke I said, it sucks to be you. May your jealousy and hatred continue to eternity.

 

[OverratedSanity]

LIke I said, it sucks to be you. May your jealousy and hatred continue to eternity.

It's not for no reason though as it.

 

[honestbharani]

It's not for no reason though as it.

Its as bad as having no reason, AFAIC.

 

[ma1978]

Kohli has been the most successful Indian captain of all time.

Its not that close.

He has had the benefits of money and professionalism, but the results are exceptional/ Knockouts in a tournaments are just luck (see: Billy Beane), but the overall performance is like no other Indian team before. And he has done this with the weakest batting team since the early 2000s.

 

[sunilz]

Kohli has been the most successful Indian captain of all time.

Its not that close.

He has had the benefits of money and professionalism, but the results are exceptional/ Knockouts in a tournaments are just luck (see: Billy Beane), but the overall performance is like no other Indian team before. And he has done this with the weakest batting team since the early 2000s.

??

 

[Arachnodouche]

Systemic structural changes are to be credited above all for the current batch of seamers. But you also need someone at the top with the mindset to wield them as a weapon. Ganguly would've done this as well as Kohli if he had quality bowlers at his disposal; they both have the same ****-the-world, aggression-at-all- costs mentality. Dhoni not so much because he was too clever by half and prone to being defensive.

I have a love-hate thing with Kohli. He can be odious but he's also made this team in his image. Rahane can pick up all the scraps he wants and be hailed as the better captain, but they'll only ever be Kohli's leavings. Having grown up seeing how meek and submissive our team used to be on the field and abroad in particular, I can't deny feeling a certain satisfaction at how they carry themselves today. Sure, part of it is the new-India syndrome, and they often do things that don't sit well with me personally, but they're nobody's bitches anymore. This wasn't uniformly the case even ten years ago and I'm fairly certain having an obnoxious livewire, not to mention the small matter of a truly great batsman, in the shape of Kohli has something to do with it. Relieving him of white-ball captaincy is a good move, if only to keep the fast food public happy, but he should be Test captain as long as he warrants a place in the side, wants the job, and is delivering results.

 

[honestbharani]

Rahane can pick up all the scraps he wants and be hailed as the better captain,

Funny you should mention that. @CricAddict remember how when Rahane wins a game as stand-in captain, it is almost NEVER about "the system"? Its why I said what I said.

 

[Shri]

you guys don't get that captains can be subtle and passive while being aggressive on field.

steve waugh didn't need to act like a monkey and be aggressive to be successful

rahane was tactically so much better than panauti and you all have to just deal with that and cope

 

[Arachnodouche]

you guys don't get that captains can be subtle and passive while being aggressive on field.

steve waugh didn't need to act like a monkey and be aggressive to be successful

rahane was tactically so much better than panauti and you all have to just deal with that and cope

That's not what's being said. If bowling prowess is an outcome of decades-long system-wide investment, then developing team culture is an evolutionary process too, albeit a shorter one and lasting for the tenure of a given captain. It wasn't Rahane's tactical acumen alone that won India those games. He also reaped the benefits of a tougher, more attritional outfit inspired by Kohli.

 

[cnerd123]

Has the Indian team ever been meek since Ganguly? MSD was defensive yes, but he lead them to a WC win, a WT20 win, and number 1 in the Test rankings. You don't have that kind of success being meek. Sure under MSD the team lacked a bit of spine overseas, but that was with an ageing batting lineup full of established legends that perhaps stayed on a bit long, and a pop-gun bowling attack that was unfortunately the best we could muster at the time. In friendlier conditions the side was unstoppable, and we were a much superior white-ball outfit until the end of his reign.

 

[honestbharani]

rahane was tactically so much better than panauti and you all have to just deal with that and cope

Basically every interview of Ashwin talks about how every tactic and strategy in the BG series was from Bewda. So why credit Rahane then?

 

[Teja.]

 

[honestbharani]

 

[Flem274*]

Yessss

Most cricketing success is structural, and Indian cricket's obsession with captains is toxic. Captains, at best, can maximise the output of the talent at their disposal. They can be proactive and back a young player early, they can be smart and use resources wisely. But if you want to be a top tier team you need more than just a great captain - you need talent pathways. People to identify players, people to develop them, and domestic cricket structures that prepare players for International cricket. A Tours help a lot too.

Good to see you on board with this, but I'd probably phrase it like this

The team quality to be the best is all structural, the team culture to be the best is all leadership

Kohli's intensity was probably fantastic initially but it would be very stressful to play under for a long period of time. An intense manager at work can majorly scrub up a workforce up in the short term but over a longer period of time those workers will just be thinking 'shuuuuut uuuuup literally no one cares about this minor thing you total psycho'