How good COULD Pakistan be?

[Burgey]

I think they're better without Akthar, even if nothing more than a solid fast-medium bowler plays in his stead. His talent is immense, but his attitude and commitment are questionable much of the time. He's also very injury-prone and the instability which he creates seems detrimental to the side, at least that's the impression I get from the outside.

 

[thierry henry]

Don't get it how?

How a fit Saqlain could ever have been dropped from the ODI side/left out of it when he regained fitness.

iirc you don't rate Saqlain as highly as I do as an ODI bowler, hence your probably lower level of disbelief.

 

[Richard]

I think the perception is that he's never gained fitness again since returing to the fray.

Certainly he's done nothing of note in the domestic game since returning, and while I rated him extremely highly (can't remember us ever discussing the issue) I'm not especially surprised he's never been picked again, TBH.

It's a great shame he's done nothing of note, of course. And it doesn't make much sense. But I'm sure if he had been doing, he'd have been in the side like a shot.

 

[Richard]

I think they're better without Akthar, even if nothing more than a solid fast-medium bowler plays in his stead. His talent is immense, but his attitude and commitment are questionable much of the time. He's also very injury-prone and the instability which he creates seems detrimental to the side, at least that's the impression I get from the outside.

A solid fast-medium bowler like...?

Pakistani bowlers who fit the description "solid" are sadly rare... and maybe that's why Shoaib played for as long as he did. About the only two are Asif and Shabbir Ahmed, one of whom has undoubted superstar potential and the other who has the clouds of a dodgy action perminantly ensconsed (sp, possibly - CBA to check) over his head. And he's, what, 30, by now? I hope we'll see him again 'cos he's a fine bowler (when he gets that action right) but sadly he might be a long gone stories.

Aside from those two, all the bowlers available to Pakistan are either rubbish (Sami) or mercurial (Shahid Nazir, Rana in ODIs, Gul) and that's just the way things have always tended to be.

 

[thierry henry]

I think the perception is that he's never gained fitness again since returing to the fray.

Certainly he's done nothing of note in the domestic game since returning, and while I rated him extremely highly (can't remember us ever discussing the issue) I'm not especially surprised he's never been picked again, TBH.

It's a great shame he's done nothing of note, of course. And it doesn't make much sense. But I'm sure if he had been doing, he'd have been in the side like a shot.

I was under the impression, mistaken perhaps, that the first time he was out of the ODI side he was actually dropped, not injured?

Over what period was he actually sidelined with injury?

 

[thierry henry]

I suppose my point is, as an ODI bowler imo he is in the Warne/Murali class.

I just can't imagine a similar scenario where either of those two would be almost permanently dropped, or even permanently left out following injury. I imagine they would be given a heap of chances to genuinely perform poorly before being consigned to the scrapheap.

A perusal of Saqlain's record shows that he is being left out on the assumption that he will be rubbish, but he hasn't been given the opportunity to actually be rubbish first, which I reckon a Warne/Murali would.

 

[Richard]

They probably would. Personally I don't rate Saqlain in Murali's class, not at all, though Warne (who was a lesser ODI bowler than he was in Tests) probably.

I'm honestly not sure I'm sorry he's not been given the chance to do terribly at ODI level, though. It'd be sad to see if it happened - there's not much I hate more than a once magnificent player returning a shadow of his former self. It's a real shame.

As regards him being dropped, I don't think he ever has been (outside the time when virtually the entire first-team squad was dropped after the debacle of WC2003 - Inzamam, Shoaib, Afridi, plus terminally Wasim, Waqar and Saeed), I think he was just injured sometime in 2003 and has played one ODI since (8-52-0).

 

[shortpitched713]

He was dropped from Tests after some ridiculous figures like 1-200 or something like that in a match against India. I don't think he was ever given another chance in ODIs after his injury, and I for one think it was a damn shame he wasn't.

 

[Burgey]

A solid fast-medium bowler like...?

Pakistani bowlers who fit the description "solid" are sadly rare... and maybe that's why Shoaib played for as long as he did. About the only two are Asif and Shabbir Ahmed, one of whom has undoubted superstar potential and the other who has the clouds of a dodgy action perminantly ensconsed (sp, possibly - CBA to check) over his head. And he's, what, 30, by now? I hope we'll see him again 'cos he's a fine bowler (when he gets that action right) but sadly he might be a long gone stories.

Aside from those two, all the bowlers available to Pakistan are either rubbish (Sami) or mercurial (Shahid Nazir, Rana in ODIs, Gul) and that's just the way things have always tended to be.

My post wasn't worded quite as it should have been, which is nothing unusual I suppose.
I meant that they would be better off with a bowler of less raw ability but someone who they know will always be doing their best to get the job done whenever they are there. From the outside, which isn't always a great perspective I admit, it just doesn't look to me loke he always busted his boiler for the cause.

 

[Beleg]

Butt is old news. Asif is the only youngster to have emerged during the last two years.


In 1997, Pakistan had Saeed Anwar, Aamir Shoail, Inzamam, Ejaz and Salim Malik in the batting department with Yousuf rising quickly through the ranks as well. Mohammad Wasim and Ali Naqvi were extremely promising youngsters, having scored test centuries in trying conditions against strong opponents.

Our bowling line-up was composed of Wasim, Waqar, a young, brilliantly audacious Saqlain, wily Mushtaq at the top of his art [anybody who watched the Durban test in South Africa would know what I am talking about], a young, relatively unknown Shoaib Akhtar, Mohammad Zahid who made his appearence on the scene with one of the most devestating bowling performances ever in Pakistan, supported by the talents of a Razzaq who actually knew and wanted to ball, Azhar Mahmood who was being hailed as the next Imran Khan and actually looked the part of a top-order batsman and the likes of Mohammad Akram, Fazal-E-Akbar, Shahid Nazir, Mohammad Hussain providing decent support to the top tier bowlers.

Shahid Afridi performed brilliantly during the Carlton and United series, we had excellent keepers and more than adequate batsmen in Moin and Latif. In short, our team compromised of world class players, brilliant youngsters who were clearly talented and prospects who were expected to blaze a bright trail in their wake...(even if that didn't happen, the expectations and the euphoria was still there...)

But I look at the team today, and I compare it with the team in 1997, and I just don't see the same quality - neither among the established stars, some of whom failed to capitalize on their glorious starts, nor among the rising acts, which all seem to exist in a sea of mediocrity, rising about the tides with an occasional flash of brilliance, only to be brought down for good in the subsequent clashes. No Shoaib, no Yousuf, no Saqlain, no replacement in sight for Inzamam, the hole left by Anwar's retirement is yet to be filled - hell, I don't even see any Afridi or Razzaq or Mahmood, people who dazzled with their performances, who were young and energetic and clearly about the rest of pack (at least at that time).

Pakistan haven't had a quality established ODI batsmen after Mohammad Yousuf who joined the frey in 1997...about ten years ago [and yeah saying Shoaib Malik is one is definitely stretching it - how many match winning innings has he played?]. The musical chair played by the selectors definitely hasn't helped, but in general, the quality either hasn't been there or has been handled and nurtured absolutely attrociously. The less glamourous compatriots like Asim Kamal, Zahid Fazal and several others have been absolutely savaged by the selection policies, with the focus being put on bits and pieces players...

Anyway I can rant on and on, but suffice to say, the current bunch disappoints greatly, specially in the bowling department. There is something to be said when a neutered Saqlain and an impotent Mushtaq feel like gods compared to the likes of Kaneria (whose test figures are laughable really)... Without Shoaib Akhtar, Pakistani team lacks penetration and fire-power, as has been proven time and again...and I don't think Shoaib has it in him to play more than a few series...

 

[Barney Rubble]

Never? No, certainly not. Pakistan have had many successes - the thing being, they're rarely sustained.

And they're not always an especially good side on paper, either - they've had oodles of extremely mediocre players reprisent them.

Fair enough, my post was a throwaway comment really. Obviously Pakistan have had loads of success in the past, and haven't always had a good side on paper - I guess you could say what I said refers only to the current generation of Pakistani cricketers.

 

[nightprowler10]

Butt is old news. Asif is the only youngster to have emerged during the last two years.


In 1997, Pakistan had Saeed Anwar, Aamir Shoail, Inzamam, Ejaz and Salim Malik in the batting department with Yousuf rising quickly through the ranks as well. Mohammad Wasim and Ali Naqvi were extremely promising youngsters, having scored test centuries in trying conditions against strong opponents.

Our bowling line-up was composed of Wasim, Waqar, a young, brilliantly audacious Saqlain, wily Mushtaq at the top of his art [anybody who watched the Durban test in South Africa would know what I am talking about], a young, relatively unknown Shoaib Akhtar, Mohammad Zahid who made his appearence on the scene with one of the most devestating bowling performances ever in Pakistan, supported by the talents of a Razzaq who actually knew and wanted to ball, Azhar Mahmood who was being hailed as the next Imran Khan and actually looked the part of a top-order batsman and the likes of Mohammad Akram, Fazal-E-Akbar, Shahid Nazir, Mohammad Hussain providing decent support to the top tier bowlers.

Shahid Afridi performed brilliantly during the Carlton and United series, we had excellent keepers and more than adequate batsmen in Moin and Latif. In short, our team compromised of world class players, brilliant youngsters who were clearly talented and prospects who were expected to blaze a bright trail in their wake...(even if that didn't happen, the expectations and the euphoria was still there...)

But I look at the team today, and I compare it with the team in 1997, and I just don't see the same quality - neither among the established stars, some of whom failed to capitalize on their glorious starts, nor among the rising acts, which all seem to exist in a sea of mediocrity, rising about the tides with an occasional flash of brilliance, only to be brought down for good in the subsequent clashes. No Shoaib, no Yousuf, no Saqlain, no replacement in sight for Inzamam, the hole left by Anwar's retirement is yet to be filled - hell, I don't even see any Afridi or Razzaq or Mahmood, people who dazzled with their performances, who were young and energetic and clearly about the rest of pack (at least at that time).

Pakistan haven't had a quality established ODI batsmen after Mohammad Yousuf who joined the frey in 1997...about ten years ago [and yeah saying Shoaib Malik is one is definitely stretching it - how many match winning innings has he played?]. The musical chair played by the selectors definitely hasn't helped, but in general, the quality either hasn't been there or has been handled and nurtured absolutely attrociously. The less glamourous compatriots like Asim Kamal, Zahid Fazal and several others have been absolutely savaged by the selection policies, with the focus being put on bits and pieces players...

Anyway I can rant on and on, but suffice to say, the current bunch disappoints greatly, specially in the bowling department. There is something to be said when a neutered Saqlain and an impotent Mushtaq feel like gods compared to the likes of Kaneria (whose test figures are laughable really)... Without Shoaib Akhtar, Pakistani team lacks penetration and fire-power, as has been proven time and again...and I don't think Shoaib has it in him to play more than a few series...

Afridi, IMO.

 

[pasag]

Afridi, IMO.

Was just about to say.

 

[Richard]

Nope. As usual it's a long-winded post by a 'big name' and people say great post, which is clearly just a generalisation and nothing to do with the fact that long posts by posters with high (or highish in Yawer's case) postcounts (who are "big names" for a reason, and a good one at that) tend to be of high quality and addressing, very well, a range of things. No, nothing at all to do with that.





(This post was not merely in jest but in deliberate imitation of some nonsense posted a little while ago)

 

[adharcric]

Afridi, IMO.

Was just about to say.

Pretty much.

 

[silentstriker]

Jesus, I am personally going to start the next Indo-Pakistan war if he takes the Afridi from me.


Even if he deserves it.

 

[Richard]

It'd be more an Anglo-American war, TBH. Though Yawer is only an adopted Brit.

 

[Perm]

Jesus, I am personally going to start the next Indo-Pakistan war if he takes the Afridi from me.

Even if he deserves it.

Start posting some decent stuff then, instead of being jealous and bitter

 

[Prince EWS]

Start posting some decent stuff then, instead of being jealous and bitter

He actually posted a gun rant about picking players with no first class experience in a thread recently which is probably what he's referring to. It'll probably get the Saj but it should get the Afridi as well, IMO.

 

[Perm]

He actually posted a gun rant about picking players with no first class experience in a thread recently which is probably what he's referring to. It'll probably get the Saj but it should get the Afridi as well, IMO.

I just like winding him up. For as far back as I can remember he has always thought he had one hand on the Afridi, even some weeks when there were clearly better post (no disrespect to ss). It's actually quite humorous, seeing how he hasn't won one in a while IIRC.