How do you rate W.G. Grace?

[Chrish]

Purely based on Cricketing abilities; discounting the influence factor.

Criteria doesn't have to be Test cricket only as I have been told FC games were considered more important in that era.

 

[S.Kennedy]

Great paddle-scoop.

 

[OverratedSanity]

If first class cricket is considered,then he's arguably the greatest cricketer ever. His record is even more insanely dominant than Bradman's.

 

[Daemon]

I think it's ok to say idk, acknowledge that he's one of the greatest cricketers ever and leave it at that instead of trying to rank him. The game is just too different imo.

 

[harsh.ag]

What OS and Daemon said.

Plus, it probably makes most sense to say he's the greatest 19th century cricketer and the greatest 19th century batsman.

How much that is worth in the overall scheme of things is difficult to establish.

 

[jimmy101]

You'd have to think if the Doc was around today and had access to all of the coaching, physio, playing equipment, and, for his latter years, dietitians, of today's world he'd be just as amazing today as ever. He was an incredibly athletic and robust gentleman in his youth, talented at numerous other sporting pursuits besides cricket. If I'm not mistaken he held the world record for long jump at one point.

Let's also not forget that all basic modern batsmanship is based off of Grace's method of playing the bat parralel with the front pad, something which he originated.

 

[Red]

I think it's ok to say idk, acknowledge that he's one of the greatest cricketers ever and leave it at that instead of trying to rank him. The game is just too different imo.

In spite of this, who were the other leading batsmen of his era in FC cricket, and how do they compare?

 

[vitalogy83]

It's very hard to separate the influence factor from the cricketing side when it comes to WG imo.

Just by looking at his FC stats you could say it was a hell of a cricketer in his own right. It's just too difficult to rate him and contrast him with the modern era. He was a great..and will leave it as that like Daemon said.

 

[jimmy101]

Given Grace's fondness for a handsome income, and being a handy part time bowler to boot, there's every bit of evidence to suggest he'd have been a t20 specialist these days

 

[Zinzan]

If first class cricket is considered,then he's arguably the greatest cricketer ever. His record is even more insanely dominant than Bradman's.

I haven't looked into it thoroughly enough myself, but was he averaging close to twice the next best FC bats of that time? And was it really indicative of how good he was considering the myths you hear of him often batting on after being dismissed because he was W G. and audiences had come to see him bat?

 

[Second Spitter]

Greatest athlete with a medical degree until George Peponis.

 

[a massive zebra]

You'd have to think if the Doc was around today and had access to all of the coaching, physio, playing equipment, and, for his latter years, dietitians, of today's world he'd be just as amazing today as ever. He was an incredibly athletic and robust gentleman in his youth, talented at numerous other sporting pursuits besides cricket. If I'm not mistaken he held the world record for long jump at one point.

I believe you are confusing him with C.B. Fry who tied the world long jump record while at university in the 1890s. However, in W.G.'s youth, his athleticism and endurance were beyond comparison. For example, in 1866, Grace hit 224 not out for the Gentlemen of England against Surrey at The Oval, before travelling straight to a national and olympian association athletics event at Crystal Palace, where he won the 440 yard hurdles, finishing 20 yards ahead of second place.

A cricketer is inevitably a product of his times, and obviously if we were able to send a time machine back to fetch W.G. and put him into a Test match today, he would undoubtedly struggle. But a cricketer of Grace's calibre born into modern times would probably still become the greatest cricketer in the world, if given the opportunities. The demands of the game, the skills required, and the equipment, have not changed very much.

Let's also not forget that all basic modern batsmanship is based off of Grace's method of playing the bat parralel with the front pad, something which he originated.

Indeed. It is no exaggeration to say that without Grace cricket would not exist as we know it today. Here is an excellent overview of his impact on the game:

He revolutionised cricket, turning it from an accomplishment into a science; he united in his masterly self all the good points of all the good players and made utility the criterion of style... He turned the old one-stringed instrument into a many chorded lyre, a wand. But in addition he made his execution equal his invention. Possibly Grace's most far reaching achievement was to master both forward and back play and draw on both with equal dexterity. Until his time, a man was either a back player like Carpenter or a forward player like Pilch, a hitter like E.H. Budd or a sticker like Harry Jupp. But W.G. Grace was each and all at once.

Before Grace, cricket could be classed as a rural English pursuit and after Grace it was an international sport played to a high standard in many different cultures.

 

[jimmy101]

Ah yes, Fry. The other freak athlete/cricketer of Victorian times.

 

[a massive zebra]

In spite of this, who were the other leading batsmen of his era in FC cricket, and how do they compare?

Grace cannot be analysed by comparing his career averages to modern players as the game was very different then* and in any case he continued playing for literally decades after his peak. The true class of Grace shows through when you compare his performances season by season against his leading contemporaries. When he began playing first class cricket, the other leading batsmen were Robert Carpenter, Tom Hayward and Richard Daft. Their career averages were in the mid 20s, although they all achieved multiple seasonal averages of over 30. For around ten years between approximately 1866 and 1876, Grace would routinely be the best batsman in England by an absolute mile, averaging 50-80 where the next best batsman averaged about 30, and score 5-10 centuries when nobody else managed more than 1.

Leading batsmen in 1869
Leading batsmen in 1870
Leading batsmen in 1871
Leading batsmen in 1872
Leading batsmen in 1873
Leading batsmen in 1874
Leading batsmen in 1875
Leading batsmen in 1876

Between 1866 and 1876, Grace scored 16,264 runs in first class cricket @ 56.66 with 56 centuries. Over this period, the next highest run scorer was Harry Jupp who made 11,000 runs @ 24.88 with 8 centuries and the next highest average (among regular players) was recorded by Richard Daft who made 5,379 runs @ 32.60 with 6 centuries. No one, not even Bradman, has ever achieved a greater level of dominance over their peers, and despite being a paper amateur he was very influential in developing a hardened professional mentality towards the sport.

*When W.G. Grace emerged in the 1860s:
1. Pitch preparation was in its infancy, and the quality of pitches was, by modern standards, horrific. Batsmen regularly had to put up with balls shooting along the ground or bouncing alarmingly from a good length. If I remember correctly, it was not unusual to receive three shooters in one over and then to have the next delivery sailing over your head.
2. Overarm bowling was only legalised in 1864 (the year of Grace's first class debut) and roundarm bowling continued to be more commonly used for the next couple of decades.
3. Swing bowling was non existent. It would first be effectively used by Bart King and George Hirst around the turn of the century.
4. Googlies and doosras were yet to be discovered. The googly was discovered by Bernard Bosanquet around 1900 and the doosra was discovered by Sonny Ramadhin in the 1950s before being "lost" and then rediscovered by Saqlain Mushtaq in the 1990s.
5. Lob bowling was a respected art form. Some lob bowers even represented England, the last being George Simpson-Hayward as late as 1910.
6. Most fast bowlers span the ball.
7. Footwork was looked down upon.
8. Some shots we take for granted were yet to be invented. For example, the leg glance was invented by Ranjitsinhji in the 1890s. Hook shots were very rare. The reverse sweep did not exist.
9. Hitting a full toss was considered "bad manners" and smashing a long hop was considered "immoral". Grace changed all this by unifying the elements of batting, playing forward and back, playing the bat parrallel with the front pad, smashing all balls that deserved the treatment etc.

By the end of Grace's career four decades later, top class cricket had evolved into something comparable to the modern first class game.

 

[S.Kennedy]

He was the first Englishman to really annoy Australians. From memory the second Ashes tour he did, he wound the Aussies up, a hundred years plus before Jimmy Anderson, even before Jardine. Needless to say he is now a hero of mine.

 

[Red]

I can't imagine having a guy who blatantly cheated as my hero, but whatever.

 

[fredfertang]

I can't imagine having a guy who blatantly cheated as my hero, but whatever.

Plenty have Viv Richards as a hero

 

[Red]

Plenty have Viv Richards as a hero

Are you asserting he cheated?

 

[fredfertang]

Are you asserting he cheated?

If intimidating an umpire isn't cheating I don't know what is

 

[fredfertang]

...... and as for Desi Haynes in the same series

Not that I have a long memory, usually