How did India become the No. 1 Test Side?

[stephen]

I always found it interesting that Pakistan and India have such different strengths. Pakistan have always had much better pace bowlers and India much better spinners. I'm not sure that this is at all to do with conditions in those countries (climatically they're right next to each other and there's probably more variation within India than there is between the Pakistan and some regions in India). I think that's more to do with cricketing culture in those countries. India basically worship batsmen, which is what everyone wants to be. So right from the lowest levels they prepare wickets for batsmen to score runs. That, combined with the heat basically makes fast bowling a much tougher prospect and so spinners develop since they're better suited to bowling long spells in 35 degree heat on low-bouncing roads.

Pakistan on the other hand supposedly play a lot of tape ball and worship fast bowlers. I know a lot less about their cricketing culture at the lower levels but they obviously nurture fast bowlers a lot better than India do. Probably the best ever conventional swing bowler (Waqar) comes from Pakistan, so the atmospheric conditions must suit swing bowling somewhat. And since nobody tours there any more it's really hard to characterise their pitches. UAE pitches are slow and low though and offer conditions relatively close to Indian conditions.

So yes, conditions are different between India and Pakistan, but both countries don't offer huge amounts of bounce. Sri Lanka usually produces roads which take turn. Bangladesh seems to do similar. In fact, India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh all tend to offer wickets that favour finger spinners (low bouncing, slow turn which makes bowling wrist spin harder). The conditions aren't identical, but they're certainly very similar.

Australia and South Africa are similar in the way that Pakistan and India are similar - they both offer very similar levels of bounce. But South Africa tends to offer more seam movement for the bowlers than Australia does. To counter that, their grounds are a bit smaller. England has very different conditions to either country. They have slow pudding decks that offer a decent amount of swing. So a pure fast bowler like Starc isn't as effective in English conditions but a slower swing bowler like Anderson is extremely effective in those conditions but is a lot less so in Australian conditions.

The West Indies has sadly become filled with slow and low pitches. They used to offer fast, bouncy pitches with a bit in them but since their decline they've been offering pitches that are closer to Asian pitches in character than before.

 

[Spark]

Hehe the old method of lumping all the SC countries with multiple languages/cultures/religions into one but the white countries with the transplanted Englishmen have a lot of 'variety' and 'diversity'. "Oh but racism doesn't exist".

Get this race baiting **** out of cricket chat. Final warning.

 

[Flem274*]

'roads that take turn' lel turny road

indian, sri lankan and bangladeshi pitches are quite different to each other. if you just want to focus on turn then yes they all turn but it's a bit like saying all aus/eng/nz/SA pitches are the same because they support pace bowling in some sense.

Indian pitches traditionally have fast turn. it's why someone like Jadeja is such a beast there, because he can fire it in fast and the pitch will help him out with fast turn. Bangladeshi pitches for the most part seem to be rolled mud - slow turn, hard to hit it off the square and generally encourage attritional warfare and beating batsmen in the air rather than off the pitch.

england has a fair bit of variation in their pitches ftr, as does SA.

 

[Spark]

Eh, Indian pitches have fast turn relatively speaking. I'd say the pitches England got were, for the most part, quite slow. In fact that's part of why Jadeja does well: the relative lack of pace and bounce means he has an edge over spinners who are a bit slower through the air and therefore off the pitch, where he really fires it in. Same reason SOK was suited to those pitches, whereas Lyon used to really struggle because he doesn't bowl well when he does that (formerly).

 

[cnerd123]

Eh, Indian pitches have fast turn relatively speaking. I'd say the pitches England got were, for the most part, quite slow. In fact that's part of why Jadeja does well: the relative lack of pace and bounce means he has an edge over spinners who are a bit slower through the air and therefore off the pitch, where he really fires it in. Same reason SOK was suited to those pitches, whereas Lyon used to really struggle because he doesn't bowl well when he does that (formerly).

I think by fast-turn he means pitches that respond well to fast spin bowling. The general rule is you have to bowl slow in order to get the ball to turn. In India, that rule doesn't seem to apply. The pitches don't have quite a lot of pace and bounce, per say, but they seem to grip a lot better, and so a guy like Jadeja or SOK get the kind of bite off it that they won't get elsewhere.

Bangla pitches are slow and attritional, Pakistani pitches were know for being dead but hard - thus encouraging pure pace and wrist spin - while Sri Lankan pitches seem to vary between slow and low, properly flat, green and crumbling. You actually get quite a good variety of tracks in India and Sri Lanka, it's just that the soil doesn't seem conducive to producing fast and bouncy tracks. You do get the occasional pitch with seam and swing, but not one that's fast and seams and swings.

I agree that lumping all SC as one is a bit lazy. It gets to the general point of 'batting in conditions that are not fast and bouncy', but there is more nuance to it.

 

[smash84]

A lot of ignorance about pakistani pitches being thrown around for obvious reasons since it's almost been a decade that pakistan last played test matches at home. Pakistani pitches we're arguably the flattest in the world. The reason why Lillee called it a graveyard for fast bowlers. The barren pitches and not so soft outfields combined to get the ball into shape to get good reverse swing. They were the proverbial dead pitches, neither taking much spin, nor seam and swing. The culture of pakistan throwing up good fast bowlers has nothing to do with climate either. Most of the year is reasonably hot and the wickets don't support much of pace bowling. The climate in most of pakistan is similar to north and northwest India. The bowling culture is around thanks to Imran.

 

[cnerd123]

A lot of ignorance about pakistani pitches being thrown around for obvious reasons since it's almost been a decade that pakistan last played test matches at home. Pakistani pitches we're arguably the flattest in the world. The reason why Lillee called it a graveyard for fast bowlers. The barren pitches and not so soft outfields combined to get the ball into shape to get good reverse swing. They were the proverbial dead pitches, neither taking much spin, nor seam and swing. The culture of pakistan throwing up good fast bowlers has nothing to do with climate either. Most of the year is reasonably hot and the wickets don't support much of pace bowling. The climate in most of pakistan is similar to north and northwest India. The bowling culture is around thanks to Imran.

I also heard that the domestic schedule being less intense, and with less junior/club level cricket in general, that young fast bowlers in Pakistan don't break down as frequently as they do in India. In India the sheer volume of cricket tends to break any promising young fast bowlers.

 

[Daemon]

The reasons why people separate English conditions from Aus and SA are not just limited to the pitches being different, but also the type of batting that's required to be successful.

Not all English batsmen enjoy pace and bounce and not all Australians can play lateral movement.

In the SC however, as varied as the pitches are, the tools required to succeed on them are generally quite similar, be it a slow and low track, a flat wicket with consistent but not much bounce, or a turner. The only exception to this seems to be the recent greentops we've seen in India and SL. One could also argue that the serious turners require technique that not all SC batsmen possess, but this also appears to be the exception rather than the rule.

 

[smash84]

I also heard that the domestic schedule being less intense, and with less junior/club level cricket in general, that young fast bowlers in Pakistan don't break down as frequently as they do in India. In India the sheer volume of cricket tends to break any promising young fast bowlers.

That's also true, the schedules are definitely lighter in Pakistan

 

[Burgey]

Do India and Paksitan limit the number of overs under age players can bowl in a day? That's something which has been in here for a number of years now in an attempt to limit back injuries.

 

[Slifer]

A lot of ignorance about pakistani pitches being thrown around for obvious reasons since it's almost been a decade that pakistan last played test matches at home. Pakistani pitches we're arguably the flattest in the world. The reason why Lillee called it a graveyard for fast bowlers. The barren pitches and not so soft outfields combined to get the ball into shape to get good reverse swing. They were the proverbial dead pitches, neither taking much spin, nor seam and swing. The culture of pakistan throwing up good fast bowlers has nothing to do with climate either. Most of the year is reasonably hot and the wickets don't support much of pace bowling. The climate in most of pakistan is similar to north and northwest India. The bowling culture is around thanks to Imran.

And maybe Fazal??

 

[cnerd123]

Do India and Paksitan limit the number of overs under age players can bowl in a day? That's something which has been in here for a number of years now in an attempt to limit back injuries.

We've got that in HK as well.

I think with the sheer volume of cricket in India/Pak that, even if the BCCI and PCB had official guidelines, enforcing them within all leagues and competitions must be next to impossible.

The reasons why people separate English conditions from Aus and SA are not just limited to the pitches being different, but also the type of batting that's required to be successful.

Not all English batsmen enjoy pace and bounce and not all Australians can play lateral movement.

In the SC however, as varied as the pitches are, the tools required to succeed on them are generally quite similar, be it a slow and low track, a flat wicket with consistent but not much bounce, or a turner. The only exception to this seems to be the recent greentops we've seen in India and SL. One could also argue that the serious turners require technique that not all SC batsmen possess, but this also appears to be the exception rather than the rule.

I think guys like Rahane are showing that the skills needed to succeed in modern-day Indian domestic cricket are now more closely matching those to succeed in England - we have a lot more greentops than we used to.

The ranging turners seem to have been a new trend. We're yet to see any batsman consistently succeed on them.

 

[Daemon]

Do India and Paksitan limit the number of overs under age players can bowl in a day? That's something which has been in here for a number of years now in an attempt to limit back injuries.

lol some of our cricketers ride on scooters or take the train with their kits on their back for around 2-3 hours total everyday to and from training then eat a bowl of maggi for dinner. unless you're in the u19 set up it's unlikely they'll look after you well.

 

[Shri]

The Indian seam bowling attack will come here full of promise and get torn to shreds. It is ever thus.

If Umesh plays all tests, we might snag one or two tests.

 

[Shri]

The ranging turners seem to have been a new trend. We're yet to see any batsman consistently succeed on them.

Its the oldest trend. Sehwag, Siddhu, Dravid, Tendulkar, Laxman etc were good at negotiating those tracks because they grew up coming across pitches like that lots of times when playing domestic cricket. When Rahane, Pujara, Rohit etc started playing FC cricket, they played on roads and came across turners much less frequently so they are not as good as the older batch. In the mid 2000s, India played on loads of roads that offered nothing to any kind of bowler and the FC cricketers who played on similar surfaces all had FC averages in the 60s. The next generation of our batsmen will be great players of spin is my guess.

 

[Victor Ian]

Australia need to have a team in the Ranji Trophy (is that the 1st class tournament). Make our A team a permanent fixture there each year, and for fairness, give India a team in the shield each year. And get the New Zealand A to have a team over there too. And South African A, and Sri Lanka A and Bangladesh. Don't let England A in there though. They can suck ****.

It would be an interesting concept though, to help younger players develop in foreign conditions for a season or two so they can have time to work out a technique for it.

 

[cnerd123]

It would benefit the host nation quite a bit too - imagine domestic Indian batsmen getting to face the next gen of Aussie quicks, or the next gen of Bangladeshi bowlers getting to bowl against some proper batsmen.

 

[Daemon]

It would benefit the host nation quite a bit too - imagine domestic Indian batsmen getting to face the next gen of Aussie quicks, or the next gen of Bangladeshi bowlers getting to bowl against some proper batsmen.

Woah, slow down there nobody invited Bangladesh

 

[cnerd123]

Woah, slow down there nobody invited Bangladesh

Australia need to have a team in the Ranji Trophy (is that the 1st class tournament). Make our A team a permanent fixture there each year, and for fairness, give India a team in the shield each year. And get the New Zealand A to have a team over there too. And South African A, and Sri Lanka A and Bangladesh. Don't let England A in there though. They can suck ****.

It would be an interesting concept though, to help younger players develop in foreign conditions for a season or two so they can have time to work out a technique for it.

Victor Ian clearly did.

 

[Daemon]

Giving Victor Ian the benefit of the doubt there and assuming it's a typo