Greatest Bowler of All Time

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

So you place greatness purely on stats?

No, but I don't think entertainment value has anything to do with it. Answer my question please.

 

[Fiery]

No, but I don't think entertainment value has anything to do with it. Answer my question please.

If a player who bored the ****e out of me averaged 70 and one I loved watching bat averaged 50 and they scored the same amount of runs then I would consider the latter greater. Of course entertainment value has something to do with it. Players are remembered for how they played the game. Anyway, greatness is quite subjective and what is one man's meat is another man's poison so why are we arguing. McGrath is boring to watch IMO because he doesn't do much with the ball therefore I don't rate him near the "greatest bowler of all time" as is the thread title. Admittedly, the fact that he is Australian is a contributing factor.

 

[Mr Mxyzptlk]

If a player who bored the ****e out of me averaged 70 and one I loved watching bat averaged 50 and they scored the same amount of runs then I would consider the latter greater. Of course entertainment value has something to do with it. Players are remembered for how the played the game. Anyway, greatness is quite subjective and what is one man's meat is another man's poison so why are we arguing. McGrath is boring to watch IMO because he doesn't do much with the ball therefore I don't rate him near the "greatest bowler of all time" as is the thread title. Admittedly, the fact that he is Australian is a contributing factor.

So if a batsman racks up 5,000 runs in 50 Tests at a SR of 35, he's less of a player than a batsman who scored 5,000 runs in 75-80 Tests at a SR of 80? That is rubbish of the highest order.

 

[Top_Cat]

You obviously never saw Hadlee bowl. He would mix up his overs, bowling off-cutters, leg-cutters, swinging it both ways or dropping in lightning pace bouncers as he worked a batsman out . The fact that the ball was always accurate didn't mean it was the same shape. Jones was Hadlee's bunny and has no right to comment on his bowling because he had absolutely no idea how to play him.

And guess what, McGrath does the same stuff. He doesn't swing the ball quite as much but as far as movement off the seam, accuracy and other movement, McGrath and Hadlee are in similar leagues. And McGrath's bouncer has long been considered very tough to play because it's much quicker than one expects.

As far as whethe I saw Hadlee bowl, well you really have no idea of what you're talking about there. My points stand.

 

[Fiery]

So if a batsman racks up 5,000 runs in 50 Tests at a SR of 35, he's less of a player than a batsman who scored 5,000 runs in 75-80 Tests at a SR of 80? That is rubbish of the highest order.

Hey, before you start getting rude and calling my opinion rubbish, think about it! The player who scores his runs quickly is a lot more valuable than someone who mucks around. Who would you prefer to have in your side or consider the better player Adam Gilchrist or Mark Richardson if they had both scored the same amount of runs.

 

[Fiery]

And guess what, McGrath does the same stuff. He doesn't swing the ball quite as much but as far as movement off the seam, accuracy and other movement, McGrath and Hadlee are in similar leagues. And McGrath's bouncer has long been considered very tough to play because it's much quicker than one expects.

As far as whethe I saw Hadlee bowl, well you really have no idea of what you're talking about there. My points stand.

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion but you are Australian and I am a New Zealander so of course we have national bias. I maintain Hadlee is a far superior bowler and being a kiwi who grew up watching him make your batsmen look like mugs I probably saw a lot more of him bowl than you probably have.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion but you are Australian and I am a New Zealander so of course we have national bias. I maintain Hadlee is a far superior bowler and being a kiwi who grew up watching him make your batsmen look like mugs I probably saw a lot more of him bowl than you probably have.

The problem is, you are claiming things which are simply untrue about McGrath's bowling. If I said Vettori was a bad bowler because he bowls leg spin and I hate leg spin bowlers, you would be quite right to tell me I was being an idiot. The same applies here. If anything, McGrath is better at extracting movement off the seam (although he doesn't swing it much) than any other bowler around these days. His variation with leg and off-cutters, as well as his changes of pace and deadly accurate bouncer are what makes him such a lethal bowler, rather than simply bowling accurately. And if you think he doesn't have variation in his bowling, watch him more closely.

And as far as national bias goes, I don't really see how it has anything to do with it. I recognise good bowling when I see it, and for me there is no doubt that McGrath is comfortably the best pace bowler in the world today, and among the all time greats. I don't really see how anybody could argue otherwise, whatever country they are from.

 

[Top_Cat]

Fair enough. You're entitled to your opinion but you are Australian and I am a New Zealander so of course we have national bias. I maintain Hadlee is a far superior bowler and being a kiwi who grew up watching him make your batsmen look like mugs I probably saw a lot more of him bowl than you probably have.

1) I don't go for national bias. If I'd seen a better bowler from another country, I'd rate him. For example, Waqar Younis is my second favourite bowler. I WISH I could bowl like him.

2) I saw quite enough of Hadlee making the Aussies look like mugs than anyone from any country could stand! I didn't see EVERY ball but I SAW ENOUGH!

 

[Deja moo]

Hey, before you start getting rude and calling my opinion rubbish, think about it! The player who scores his runs quickly is a lot more valuable than someone who mucks around. Who would you prefer to have in your side or consider the better player Adam Gilchrist or Mark Richardson if they had both scored the same amount of runs.

Who says they have scored the same amount of runs ?

The very fact that in Liams example, the slower player A got his runs in fewer tests means he has a higher average than Dashing player B.

Higher average = Mr.Plodder scoring more than Mr.Dasher.

 

[chaminda_00]

Who says they have scored the same amount of runs ?

The very fact that in Liams example, the slower player A got his runs in fewer tests means he has a higher average than Dashing player B.

Higher average = Mr.Plodder scoring more than Mr.Dasher.

I think u guys are right when it comes to the better batsmen, if a plodder has a significantly higher average then a dasher then he is a better player, e.g Dravid vs Sehwag

When it comes to best bowler in the world it all comes down to personally opion as there is no bowler that stands above the pack like Bradman does with batsmen

 

[Fiery]

I think u guys are right when it comes to the better batsmen, if a plodder has a significantly higher average then a dasher then he is a better player, e.g Dravid vs Sehwag

C'mon. So strike rates and run rates have no value in test cricket?

 

[dudeurfriend]

C'mon. So strike rates and run rates have no value in test cricket?

hey c'mon strike rate is important to assess a bowlers skill....

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

C'mon. So strike rates and run rates have no value in test cricket?

They have some value... someone like Gilchrist can demorialise opposition bowling attacks by flaying a huge score off them in a short time, but in the same way the ability to bat for a long time and survive when the pressure is on can be more valuable than quick scoring in some situations.

Personally, there's plenty of bowlers I like watching, like Lee, Flintoff, Akhtar, Vaas, Pathan, McGrath and Warne. Whether or not anyone else likes watching them is entirely a matter of personal opinion, and the fact that someone does or doesn't find them entertaining doesn't mean they are any better or worse as a player.

 

[marc71178]

Hey, before you start getting rude and calling my opinion rubbish, think about it! The player who scores his runs quickly is a lot more valuable than someone who mucks around.

So scoring the same number of runs in 30 more games is more valuable?

 

[BoyBrumby]

I recognise good bowling when I see it, and for me there is no doubt that McGrath is comfortably the best pace bowler in the world today, and among the all time greats. I don't really see how anybody could argue otherwise, whatever country they are from.

Tiny, nit-picking point: McGrath is certainly the best seam bowler in the world today, but I wouldn't call him a pace bowler. After Harmy's disintegration in SA it's harder to say who is; Ahktar I guess.

I would agree he's up there with the greats tho, yeah. Even if he never bowled another ball he's certainly in with Australia's top half-dozen seamers.

 

[Zinzan]

Fair point actually. Hadlee and McGrath actually have a fair bit in common as bowlers.

Mcgrath is the closest I've seen to Hadlee in the way he gets his wickets without extreme pace but with great accuracy and subtle movement either way. If Mcgrath can achieve even close to what Hadlee did past the age of 33 then he may get 700 test wickets. Remembering Hadlee retired aged 39. Can't see Mcgrath going that long.

Personally I think Hadlee just edges him out (excuse the pun), but i'd definately have Mcgrath in my top 5 greatest bowlers

 

[Richard]

Has the most 10 wicket bags and most 5 wicket bags in history for anyone with a ligitimate bowling action.

You'll get a sore head doing that

And you'll get a sore head going-on about legitimate actions when we now know for certain that there is no such thing as one by the old ideals, Hadlee was as illegal as anyone else if you use them.
Fortunately, we now know that no-one can.

 

[FaaipDeOiad]

Mcgrath is the closest I've seen to Hadlee in the way he gets his wickets without extreme pace but with great accuracy and subtle movement either way. If Mcgrath can achieve even close to what Hadlee did past the age of 33 then he may get 700 test wickets. Remembering Hadlee retired aged 39. Can't see Mcgrath going that long.

Personally I think Hadlee just edges him out (excuse the pun), but i'd definately have Mcgrath in my top 5 greatest bowlers

Well, Hadlee played in a time of lower batting averages and less flat decks, and didn't have as much competition for his wickets, and McGrath has still managed to outperform him statistically. Plus, with the likes of Lara, Sachin, Dravid etc about you can't really claim that the batting quality is lower today than in Hadlee's era.

Still, they are both all-time greats and if one is any better than the other it isn't by much. Regarding age, McGrath is 35 this year and just recently said he could see himself playing on for "several more years", which one would assume would put him in his late 30s... if he keeps bowling the way he is now I can certainly see it happening.

P.S. Wow... I just checked to see if I got his age right and it turns out he was born on the 9th of February 1970... so, happy 35th birthday Glenn!

 

[Zinzan]

Well, Hadlee played in a time of lower batting averages and less flat decks, and didn't have as much competition for his wickets, and McGrath has still managed to outperform him statistically. Plus, with the likes of Lara, Sachin, Dravid etc about you can't really claim that the batting quality is lower today than in Hadlee's era.

Still, they are both all-time greats and if one is any better than the other it isn't by much. Regarding age, McGrath is 35 this year and just recently said he could see himself playing on for "several more years", which one would assume would put him in his late 30s... if he keeps bowling the way he is now I can certainly see it happening.

P.S. Wow... I just checked to see if I got his age right and it turns out he was born on the 9th of February 1970... so, happy 35th birthday Glenn!

It is very close between the 2. My natural NZ bias give Hadlee the edge

 

[Swervy]

It is very close between the 2. My natural NZ bias give Hadlee the edge

and despite my natural bias, i would still give the edge to Hadlee