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Did Westindies have the best every bowling attack around 1980?

quincywagstaff

International Debutant
Yeah that's the one thing about the movie I really hate. It portrays those great 60s Windies teams as a bit of a joke team which didn't really have the desire to win which was a bit ridiculous.
Wasn't the issue the doc portrayed with pre-70s Windies cricket (by Colin Croft iirc) with how the the West Indies were seen as 'good losers' with them getting a massive ticker tape parade in Oz despite losing the 60/61 Test series?

In anycase it was an odd perspective to take implying that the Windies had never been successful pre-70s for the sake of narrative when the core audience the doco was aimed at was false, especially considering how outstanding they were in 1962-67 and generally regarded as the best side in the world.
 

Lillian Thomson

Hall of Fame Member
My understanding was always that Lloyd didn't have a problem with spinners per se, just that he never had a decent one - he played a battery of them in this match, and felt, understandably, that they let him down, so after that he just picked his best bowlers, who of course all happened to be quicks
I used to use the name Albert Padmore as a false name on a one night stand because I knew no one would have heard of him. Mind you looking back I doubt they'd have heard of Lance Gibbs either.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
I used to use the name Albert Padmore as a false name on a one night stand because I knew no one would have heard of him. Mind you looking back I doubt they'd have heard of Lance Gibbs either.
In the circumstances the name Lancelot might have been more appropriate though
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
They were fairly good post war also. They beat England 3-1 in 1950 for instance.

Have you seen on the DVD extras there is a guy, English cricketing journalist, who pillories the pace attack? I think the idea is to ''give the other side'', their bowling seen as unpopular in some quarters of course.
 

fredfertang

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
They were fairly good post war also. They beat England 3-1 in 1950 for instance.

Have you seen on the DVD extras there is a guy, English cricketing journalist, who pillories the pace attack? I think the idea is to ''give the other side'', their bowling seen as unpopular in some quarters of course.
Had Clive Lloyd had the 1950 versions of Ram and Val available to him in 1976 I'm sure he'd have played them

Was the journalist David Frith? He never liked the four pronged pace attack
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
Had Clive Lloyd had the 1950 versions of Ram and Val available to him in 1976 I'm sure he'd have played them

Was the journalist David Frith? He never liked the four pronged pace attack
Yes, that is the chap. He basically believes the Windies played anti-cricket during that era.
 

Debris

International 12th Man
Good shout. Murali, Hadlee, Warne, Imran and Barnes are in discussion, too. But Macko shades them all in my books.
He is certainly the more pleasing pick. As much as I stand by McGrath as the best fast bowler I have seen, every single bowler you have listed there is probably more entertaining to watch.
 

wpdavid

Hall of Fame Member
He's a man with strong views is Mr Frith
His views on the WI bowlers of that era went beyond criticising their over-rate and lack of variety. iirc there was something about Garner and Ambrose being lucky to be born with long limbs, and he basically wrote off all of them except Marshall.

But I do agree that Lloyd has been far too happy to write off earlier WI sides to massage his own reputation.
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
Is this specifically Lloyd or just the 'mythology' about that team on Fire in Babylon and elsewhere - I think there was a sky documentary also?
 

AndrewB

International Vice-Captain
His views on the WI bowlers of that era went beyond criticising their over-rate and lack of variety. iirc there was something about Garner and Ambrose being lucky to be born with long limbs, and he basically wrote off all of them except Marshall.

But I do agree that Lloyd has been far too happy to write off earlier WI sides to massage his own reputation.
Here's David Frith's review of the book* "Real Quick: A celebration of the West Indies Pace Quartets" in the July 1995 Wisden magazine:

"The West Indies pace attack of the 1980s, with its 250 bouncers a day, was every bit as morally indefensible as Bodyline half-a-century earlier, and no book written by sympathisers and apologists will alter that fact. Indeed, the preposterous comparison (on the opening page) with the 1948 Australian attack opens up a credibility gap that will deter the knowledgable reader from reading further.

The use of 'Celebration' in the title is as questionable as the battering-ram bowling itself. The perpetrators and their fans hugged themselves with delight as the victories piled up and surgeons carried out repairs on opposing batsmen and the true-blue onlooked wondered what the hell was happening to the 'beautiful game'. The four-prong concept, with its cynically slow over rate, seriously damaged cricket while much macho bunkum was dispensed, and the world will never forget.

Holding was usually magnificent - as was Wes Hall before him - and Garner and Ambrose were fortunate to be endowed with such long limbs. That will suffice."


*Though as you'll see it was basically a diatribe against the WI tactics which barely referred to the book.
 

Slifer

International Captain
I wonder where this Frith dude was when Lindwall and Miller used to bounce WI into submission ditto Lillee and Thompson. WI was not the only team guilty of slow over rates, it was the norm for the time. Sounds like that man needs to get a grip!!
 

S.Kennedy

International Vice-Captain
Fast bowling has always been and still is, from 'Bodyline' to Phil Hughes, controversial. The difference with the West Indies is they had four of them so never gave the opposition any respite. Here is an interesting interview,

One of the things that harmed cricket almost irreparably was the West Indian bouncer bowling. All day long, four of them, nothing in the batsman’s own half, 10-11 overs an hour. It was awful, dreadful cricket. I was watching it in England, Australia, West Indies, I was so up to here with it. In 1991, when they had actually here a year earlier, I couldn’t take it anymore. I wrote an editorial and got to the nub of it. I said their game was based on vengeance and violence. When people queried that, asking what I meant by violence, I said violence was six bouncers an over. And it was. The artistry was lost from the game. The boys were back in their crease and ducking all day. There was no driving. 10 overs an hour. I let rip. From that day to this there is a legacy. I got calls from people who said good on you. It needed to be said. But I have had other people sneaking behind my back branding me a racist. It was not racist at all.

...

Coming back to the bouncer article, I went through an uncomfortable period, but I wrote what I felt about it. Because I loved cricket too much to see the way it was being smeared by such cynical and unattractive tactics. I knew Clive Lloyd well, and he was upset, but admitted to me that “Yes, of course we are arrogant. We have a lot to be arrogant about.”

I think all things pass, and this too passed. It’s a relief now. But the administrators took forever to act. They finally rationed the bouncers to two an over, and the fast bowlers squealed like stuffed pigs. But it’s right. There shouldn’t be more than two bouncers an over. As for the over rate, there are fines around them, but not applied too seriously. However, we do get nearer to 15 an hour. 10 was dreadful. It was cheating the public.

Now we do get a bit of slow bowling. There has almost been a revival of slow bowling. I am glad I’ve lived long enough to see the end of that awful period when I was on the verge of walking away from cricket. I hated what was going on. I also felt a sense of responsibility. It was okay for the man in the street to moan about it. But for me, writing an editorial every month, I thought I would speak about it. I ended up, I am afraid to say, losing respect for a number of people. I have been in semi-retirement for a long time, but even now, occasionally, I can feel a ripple.

I also bump into people who used to read WCM. And it’s really gratifying when they say how they enjoyed the magazine. It went on for 17 years before another night of the long knives. But I had done my bit by then.
Interview: David Frith ? The doyen of cricket writers - Cricket Country
 

Slifer

International Captain
Same guy also took issue with Viv wearing a rastafarian wrist band . Really? Im curious to know if u have his thoughts on RSA cricket and the issue of apartheid pre 1990.
 

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Same guy also took issue with Viv wearing a rastafarian wrist band . Really? Im curious to know if u have his thoughts on RSA cricket and the issue of apartheid pre 1990.
Here is a link to some quotes of Frith's surrounding that issue. Can't comment on his views overall, but those quoted in the below link would tend to suggest he thought the boycotts were unnecessary. I've not really looked into it too deeply so I can't say this passage truly reflects his views.

https://books.google.com.au/books?i...#v=onepage&q=david frith on apartheid&f=false
 

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