Dale Steyn vs Allan Donald vs Shaun Pollock

[ankitj]

Garner really seems to have a much better reputation here than elsewhere. Not one to go for appeals to popularity but Holding seems to be the general choice as #2 after Marshall. IMO something similar to the revisionist Barrington love is going on there. Garner was great and he's in that elite group where there's slim margins between bowlers but him over Donald or Trueman seems hard to justify.

Nah, it's only in this exercise he got ranked this highly. Usually he is lower. I think last version of fast bowlers survival and mr_mister's fast bowling ranking had him outside of top 10.

 

[Altaican]

There was a delivery that Donald bowled to Tendulkar in 1996-97 Durban Test that sent Tendulkar’s stump cartwheeling. Back in the day, it was talked about as one of the best deliveries ever bowled. An extra special delivery to get an extra special batsman out. In the same Test match, he bowled an express yorker clean bowling Ganguly for a golden duck. That one delivery of Donald basically moved Ganguly’s batting position from number 3 to number 5 or 6 in the Indian batting lineup. Dravid was moved up since Ganguly looked completely inept against that pace.

For around 5 or 6 Test matches or so before that match (basically since his Test debut), Ganguly was number 3 in Indian batting line up.

In 1998-99 series against the West Indies, Donald could practically get Lara out at will. In fact I would go to the extent of saying, in that particular series Donald dominated Lara more than even McGrath ever did in any series.

 

[SillyCowCorner1]

We always got dominated when we went to tour SA.

 

[smash84]

There was a delivery that Donald bowled to Tendulkar in 1996-97 Durban Test that sent Tendulkar’s stump cartwheeling. Back in the day, it was talked about as one of the best deliveries ever bowled. An extra special delivery to get an extra special batsman out. In the same Test match, he bowled an express yorker clean bowling Ganguly for a golden duck. That one delivery of Donald basically moved Ganguly’s batting position from number 3 to number 5 or 6 in the Indian batting lineup. Dravid was moved up since Ganguly looked completely inept against that pace.

For around 5 or 6 Test matches or so before that match (basically since his Test debut), Ganguly was number 3 in Indian batting line up.

In 1998-99 series against the West Indies, Donald could practically get Lara out at will. In fact I would go to the extent of saying, in that particular series Donald dominated Lara more than even McGrath ever did in any series.

I think Donald bowled a very good in swinger, which at his pace was hard to keep out. For left handers that became the out swinger which became even harder, and he was also very good at letting the ball go across the left handers. I remember he gave plenty of problems to Saeed Anwar by just letting it go across with the angle to the left hander. Probably also why he was so good against Lara.

 

[Slifer]

There was a delivery that Donald bowled to Tendulkar in 1996-97 Durban Test that sent Tendulkar’s stump cartwheeling. Back in the day, it was talked about as one of the best deliveries ever bowled. An extra special delivery to get an extra special batsman out. In the same Test match, he bowled an express yorker clean bowling Ganguly for a golden duck. That one delivery of Donald basically moved Ganguly’s batting position from number 3 to number 5 or 6 in the Indian batting lineup. Dravid was moved up since Ganguly looked completely inept against that pace.

For around 5 or 6 Test matches or so before that match (basically since his Test debut), Ganguly was number 3 in Indian batting line up.

In 1998-99 series against the West Indies, Donald could practically get Lara out at will. In fact I would go to the extent of saying, in that particular series Donald dominated Lara more than even McGrath ever did in any series.

This. And yes Donald dominated the great batsmen of his time. Particularly SRT and Lara.

 

[Red]

Steyn
Donald
Pollock
Tayfield

Is my SA bowling attack. Given they'll have Kallis as well that's a ridiculous attack.

Smith
Richards
Kallis
GPollock
DeVilliers +
Faulkner
Procter
SPollock
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

You can fit everyone in the SA side and still make it balanced. Bowling attack is Steyn, Donald, SPollock, Procter, Tayfield, Faulkner, Kallis.

I doubt you could make as balanced a test side of any other nation that has seven legit bowling options. SA produces all rounders more than anyone.

 

[pardus]

I think Donald bowled a very good in swinger, which at his pace was hard to keep out. For left handers that became the out swinger which became even harder, and he was also very good at letting the ball go across the left handers. I remember he gave plenty of problems to Saeed Anwar by just letting it go across with the angle to the left hander. Probably also why he was so good against Lara.

You are correct. Inswinger was his natural delivery. In addition to Donald's pace, his height was also a big factor. He was 6'4" tall (a good 6 inches over Steyn), which meant he was naturally high in delivery.
That pace, at that trajectory, made it very hard for batsmen to get on top of his short balls (it was very risky to take chances on those deliveries in Test match cricket with no field restrictions).
That height & pace also meant that - on fast bowler friendly pitches - he could get the ball right at the batsman's throat even by pitching it just short of good length.
Those deliveries were also very hard to deal with, especially for aggressive batsmen who instinctively would try to play at it, instead of cleanly evading it and letting the ball go to the keeper.
There is a video on YouTube on Donald's bouncer-vs-hook shot contest with Australian left-hander Matthew Elliot, Donald was almost always the victor at the end of those battles.

In a sense, Donald had very limited variety but he was super effective with what little variety he had. In the end, that's what matters. Needless to say, he was a very aggressive fast bowler.

 

[morgieb]

Steyn averaged against an ordinary England team, what Donald did vs an atg Australian team. How is Steyn a level above?? Similar averages and wpm. Steyn the better SR but Donalds SR was also phenomenal. And Donald was intimidating as F. Donald was better overseas as well..... Nope sorry not a level above.

Ehhh, I think calling the England sides he faced ordinary is a bit too far. They weren't ATG level but the England sides he was facing was pretty good. Plus let's not forget a lot of that comes down to his first series against them where he was extremely raw and got smashed.

I do say the gap between the two is pretty close though. I'd take Steyn first but I can see why people would argue for Donald.

 

[stephen]

Yeah but Garner took very few 5 wicket hauls or put out memorable spells like.. basically all of his competition on that list. He's possibly the greatest designated third seamer but that's what he was. At no point was he the best bowler in the world. I know it's not his fault that he coexisted with Marshall and Hadlee but surely he loses some points for being less explosive. Garner doesn't have those intangibles that Ambrose and Marshall did imo. Holding too maybe. There's no god-like peak in there. I don't think he's in the top 10. Can't understand why Trueman ranked so low. That strike rate is ridiculous for the era he played in and he seems to have had it all really.

There are a few guys who have a case for being the best ever for different reasons. Marshall, McGrath, Ambrose, Hadlee, Steyn, Akram, Trueman, Lillee — I don't think Garner's in there. Still in that top 16-ish though.

Bowling first change it's a lot harder to take big hauls, because if there's anything in the pitch the openers will be the ones to get the early wickets and ultimately the Michelle. Pat Cummins has also taken very few big hauls and he's mostly bowled first change too.

I don't think Garner was far behind anyone really. Yes, he was the third best Windies quick, but the top two are ranked 1 and 4 overall. If Garner had less support he'd have taken a lot more large hauls.

 

[stephen]

Just let's put this into perspective. Garner bowled behind Marshall for much of his career. Marshall took 4.6 wpm. Garner took 4.4 wpm. These two guys would on average take 9 wickets between them. Every match. Including wash outs and draws.

It's unbelievable, especially when you factor in the fact that Holding played along side both and took over 4 wpm.

 

[Slifer]

Just let's put this into perspective. Garner bowled behind Marshall for much of his career. Marshall took 4.6 wpm. Garner took 4.4 wpm. These two guys would on average take 9 wickets between them. Every match. Including wash outs and draws.

It's unbelievable, especially when you factor in the fact that Holding played along side both and took over 4 wpm.

Unless I'm mistaken, i think garner took a wicket in every test he played??

 

[stephen]

Unless I'm mistaken, i think garner took a wicket in every test he played??

That's crazy.

 

[stephen]

I just looked it up. He never went wicketless and there was only three tests in which he took only one wicket.

 

[stephen]

The thing that always gets me with Garner is that he is renouned for his Yorkers. But Yorkers get harder and harder to bowl the taller you are because the margin for error is much smaller. The extra bounce means that you need to be more accurate or you'll end up bowling a half volley.

Garner must have had exceptional control to be able to do what he did. Ranked 6th overall might actually be accurate.

Marshall
Ambrose
Garner
Davidson

Are the only 4 post WWII bowlers to average less than 21 (minimum 150 wickets).

 

[Dendarii]

Smith
Richards
Kallis
GPollock
DeVilliers +
Faulkner
Procter
SPollock
Tayfield
Steyn
Donald

You can fit everyone in the SA side and still make it balanced. Bowling attack is Steyn, Donald, SPollock, Procter, Tayfield, Faulkner, Kallis.

I doubt you could make as balanced a test side of any other nation that has seven legit bowling options. SA produces all rounders more than anyone.

Moving slightly away from the best SA XI, you could have Barlow and Goddard as the openers to give you nine bowling options.

 

[ataraxia]

Moving slightly away from the best SA XI, you could have Barlow and Goddard as the openers to give you nine bowling options.

Fully all-rounder SA side I thought about recently; pretty strong:

1. EJ Barlow / o
2. TL Goddard o /
3. J Kallis / o
4. AB de Villiers / +
5. GA Faulkner / o
6. AW Nourse / o
7. CEB Rice / o
8. MJ Procter o /
9. SM Pollock o /
10. VD Philander o /
11. PM Pollock o /

 

[ankitj]

Another thread that descended into ATG XI discussion.

 

[StephenZA]

Another thread that descended into ATG XI discussion.

Are you really surprised... its almost like Dudley Nourse never existed.

 

[trundler]

De Villiers doesn't break in ahead of Nourse for me. And I prefer a proper keeper in Waite.

 

[honestbharani]

De Villiers doesn't break in ahead of Nourse for me. And I prefer a proper keeper in Waite.

Are you talking about the allrounder XI?