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Curtly Ambrose vs Dale Steyn

Who was the greater test bowler?

  • Curtly Ambrose

    Votes: 38 59.4%
  • Dale Steyn

    Votes: 26 40.6%

  • Total voters
    64

a massive zebra

International Captain
Of the pace bowlers who took 100 or more Test wickets in the 2000s, just two of the bowlers with the top 11 averages debuted after 2000.


Of the pace bowlers who took 100 or more Test wickets in the 1990s, four of the top 8 bowlers by average debuted after 1990.


Clear evidence that the new generation of fast bowlers in the 2000s did include less ATG level bowlers than their predecessors.
 
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Coronis

Cricketer Of The Year
Of the pace bowlers who took 100 or more Test wickets in the 2000s, just two of the bowlers with the top 11 averages debuted after 2000.


Of the pace bowlers who took 100 or more Test wickets in the 1990s, four of the top 8 bowlers by average debuted after 1990.


Clear evidence that the new generation of fast bowlers in the 2000s was worse than their predecessors.
I hate when this is done. Also only 7/23 of the bowlers debuted in the 00’s, compared to 11/21 for the 90’s so I can’t see that skewing the numbers..
 

a massive zebra

International Captain
I hate when this is done. Also only 7/23 of the bowlers debuted in the 00’s, compared to 11/21 for the 90’s so I can’t see that skewing the numbers..
It's not skewing the numbers at all. A lower number of 2000s debutants took 100+ wickets because a higher proportion of the 2000s bowlers were not good enough to take 100 wickets! There were many more Tests played in the 2000s than the 1990s (347 vs 464 ~ 33% increase), so if the quality of new fast bowling stocks was constant, there should be more 100+ wicket takers debuting in the 2000s than the 1990s.
 
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Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
One thing that cheeses me off about this argument is that it can be simultaneously true that batting got better, fast bowling got worse and pitches got flatter.

India's 00s batting lineup, for example, was definitely better than that which came before in all conditions. Australia peaked at that time. And there was no real successor to the two W's or the WI bowlers. WI's most prolific bowler in that period was Merv Dillon. Even if he got to play every match at Durham he still wouldn't turn out figures like Ambrose. As for pitches? Certainly I think Australia ones were flatter. On the other hand, Indian pitches were arguably more bowling friendly than in the eighties.
 

Pup Clarke

Cricketer Of The Year
Random point here, but does anyone else think Steyn would have dominated batting line-ups in the 90s? I absolutely think he would have done!

There were some great world-class batsman in that era, but (apart from Australia) I don't think there were collectively any great batting sides. My gut feel is that teams were based around a singular talent more than this era. Talismanic figures would obvs be Sachin for India and Lara for the Windies, but openers like Kirsten, Anwar, Atherton, Slater/Taylor, Jayasuriya felt like the glue to these line-ups and would regularly make big contributions in tough conditions. Howver, I would have backed Steyn to make early inroads and knock them over quickly

A rambling post itbt
 
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subshakerz

International Coach
Random point here, but does anyone else think Steyn would have dominated batting line-ups in the 90s? I absolutely think he would have done!

There were some great world-class batsman in that era, but (apart from Australia) I don't think there were collectively any great batting sides. My gut feel is that teams were based around a singular talent more than this era. Talismanic figures would obvs be Sachin for India and Lara for the Windies, but openers like Kirsten, Anwar, Atherton, Slater/Taylor, Jayasuriya felt like the glue to these line-ups and would regularly make big contributions in tough conditions. Howver, I would have backed Steyn to make early inroads and knock them over quickly

A rambling post itbt
I agree. Steyn likely would have shaved 1-1.5 points off his average if he played in the 90s and did better in England, Australia and NZ. Early 90s WI would have been a bit of a challenge though.
 

Flem274*

123/5
Th problem with the environmentally driven hypothesis is that it has the events in the wrong order. Flat test pitches cannot cause a decline in fast bowling when the new bowlers are not the same quality before they even set foot on those pitches.

This is not a hard idea to understand btw.
You are still yet to provide evidence for why this sudden, worldwide collapse in fast bowling stocks occurred. Until you do, my theory is the only one that is actually complete.

Unlike your brand of doomer, everything to do with cricket was better in 1820 snark, I'm pretty open to being proven wrong here, but all I'm getting is results based analysis like what Zebra posted above.

No one here is disputing the results between 2000-2010 were bad. I am putting forward a theory as to why they were bad. I'll even give you there is room for a small decline in talent, but the total collapse in results cannot be explained by a historical blip in talent in my view.

Imagine being a fast bowling coach and explaining to your national board CEO that you no longer have any good pace bowlers because all the pace bowlers are just inherently bad? He'd throw you off the 10th floor for failing to do your job - turning talented young men into world class pace bowlers.

The fandom and media in this sport is pretty incredible* in that if this thread was about batsmen, everyone would acknowledge 2000s batsmen benefited from motorways, helmets, modern bats and whatever else quite happily to (correctly) contribute to the argument for ranking Miandad above MoYo. Make the same thread about bowlers and it wasn't that they ran into a perfect storm of new challenges, they were just bad.

*dumb
 

subshakerz

International Coach
You are still yet to provide evidence for why this sudden, worldwide collapse in fast bowling stocks occurred. Until you do, my theory is the only one that is actually complete.
It is pretty clear to me. WI and Pakistan cricket went into institutional decline and took their ATG pace prospects with it.

Your response assumes linear progress of all boards will assure fast bowlers will keep being churned out. That does apply to SA and Australia but not for the more dysfunctional ones.
 

Xix2565

International Debutant
Yeah seriously, I don't get this idea of a collective drop in bowling talent all at the same time when the results the bowlers get is heavily influenced by the conditions they play on. Hard to say it's all just talent when the pitches don't help you out at all. Otherwise we might as well say any bowler after WW2/any time period was hot trash for either having better bowling conditions or just being ****.
 

TheJediBrah

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You are still yet to provide evidence for why this sudden, worldwide collapse in fast bowling stocks occurred. Until you do, my theory is the only one that is actually complete.
Evidence? It's a qualitative assessment, I don't know what sort of "evidence" you are expecting, but you've been given plenty of possible reasons and influences. You're just ignoring them.

Keep in mind there are only a few dozen top-level fast bowlers at any one time, that's not a big enough number for random variations in overall quality to be impossible. Could literally just be that the talent and effectiveness of fast bowlers debuting in the 00s wasn't as good as those in the 90s. It happens.
 

Starfighter

Cricket Web: All-Time Legend
You are still yet to provide evidence for why this sudden, worldwide collapse in fast bowling stocks occurred. Until you do, my theory is the only one that is actually complete.
Unlike your brand of doomer, everything to do with cricket was better in 1820 snark, I'm pretty open to being proven wrong here, but all I'm getting is results based analysis like what Zebra posted above.
No one here is disputing the results between 2000-2010 were bad. I am putting forward a theory as to why they were bad. I'll even give you there is room for a small decline in talent, but the total collapse in results cannot be explained by a historical blip in talent in my view.
Imagine being a fast bowling coach and explaining to your national board CEO that you no longer have any good pace bowlers because all the pace bowlers are just inherently bad? He'd throw you off the 10th floor for failing to do your job - turning talented young men into world class pace bowlers.
The fandom and media in this sport is pretty incredible* in that if this thread was about batsmen, everyone would acknowledge 2000s batsmen benefited from motorways, helmets, modern bats and whatever else quite happily to (correctly) contribute to the argument for ranking Miandad above MoYo. Make the same thread about bowlers and it wasn't that they ran into a perfect storm of new challenges, they were just bad.
*dumb
You've repeated yourself without addressing the fact your theory doesn't address the quality of bowlers coming into tests. Why is it hard to accept that there is simply variation? There is probably not a single reason across each country or even in each country. You're talking about a group only about 30 people at any one time, not more than a handful of which will be absolutely top flight.

Let's break it down looking at the fast bowling dependent countries:

Australia: We had decent depth in the late 80s/early 90s with McDermott and Hughes, but McGrath was the first top flight bowler since Lawson's good spell in the early eighties. From then on the bowling was centered around him. Gillespie was good across both decades but the mid/late 90s support cast (Reiffel, Fleming) was a bit more capable than the overlapping one to the mid 00s (Lee, Bichel, Kasprowicz). Clark emerged to redress this but didn't stay for long and then it's the frustrating Siddle/Hilfenhaus/Johnson era. Overall after McGrath there was a little less immediate quality in the 00s. Even then our average only increases from 26.65 to 27.74.

Pakistan: the closest there was to a successor to Wasim and Waqar was Shoaib, who was injured all the time. Asif emerged but had his own issues and was banned when he was really starting to hit his stride. Pakistan's pace bowling quality was contained in only two bowlers and when they went, their penetrativeness went. Average increased from 25.82 to 33.34.

South Africa: never produced a successor to Donald, Ntini was nowhere near the same level and Pollock gradually faded as his pace declined. No one else had any staying power until Steyn got it right, Nel being the next most prolific. Philander took a long time to catch the selectors' eyes (he made his FC debut in 2004 and had taken a lot of wickets when finally picked). Average increased from 25.61 to 28.95.

West Indies: as dependent on Ambrose and Walsh as Pakistan were on the two Ws. Bishop aside no-one was better than meh and the pace torrent (based largely around one team, Barbados) was a trickle even by the mid-90s. Guys like King or Rose looked promising but didn't kick on for one reason or another. Everyone else was tosh. Average goes from 26.39 to 35.68.

England: remained pretty much the same mix of condition-dependent good-but-not-greats and promising players who get injured. Their average actually improved from 32.85 to 31.7 from the 90s to the 00s.

Won't bother about the others.

The vast majority of the change was that WI and Pakistan went from really good to crap when their top flight bowlers (a grand total of just four) retired, Aus and SA got worse but not as dramatically, England improved slightly. All this was discernible simply by looking at who was playing (eyes, not spreadsheets). Why did the changes occur? Pakistan has never had any depth. WIs well dried, while pitches did get slower there but the drying happened before that, with the last very good bowler being Bishop from 1989. Aus and SA might well have just experienced natural variation. But the fact is all these were set in stone before anyone ever stepped onto a test pitch, flat or not.

And add that Australia had the batting equivalent of WI's pace factory in the late 90s to the mid 00s, and India managed to put together a far deeper and more powerful batting lineup than they ever had before. We they perhaps advantaged by flatter pitches the 00s? Maybe, but they all entered the international game well before then. In any conditions I'd back the batting from both teams to be better than their 1990 equivalents.

Part of the issue here is the confusion to distributions. If top class bowlers were randomly distributed we'd expect peaks and troughs of bowling quality, because random is not uniform. Certainly there are cases where conditions have affected certain bowling styles. It's visible all the time for spin, and for pace India and Pakistan post-War and Australia in mid-late sixties are both clear examples where poor pitches impacted fast bowling stocks. But your 21-24 averaging bowlers are so rare simple natural variation can be powerful.

Did fast bowling get worse in the 00s regardless of other factors? Yes, in my opinion. Did batting get better in the 00s regardless of other factors? Yes, in my opinion. Were test pitches flatter in the 00s? Yes, in my opinion. Can these things reinforce each other to produce an observable change? Yes I think, the 00s were higher scoring. But are they foundationally dependent on each other? No. You can ask whether flatter pitches in country caused changes at domestic level which spilled over into tests. But flat test pitches cannot be responsible for the fact that the bowlers debuting on them aren't as good.
 
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subshakerz

International Coach
If the tough pitches of the 2000s stopped ATGs from developing, why is it that WI and Pakistan haven't produced an ATG-level bowlers since the late 80s?

The last ATGs to come from these countries was Ambrose in 88 and Waqar in 89. Guys like Bishop and Shoaib basically broke down. So why couldnt they produce ATGs in the 90s despite the good pitches? How come they haven't produced an ATG in over 30 years?
 

TheJediBrah

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Keep in mind there are only a few dozen top-level fast bowlers at any one time, that's not a big enough number for random variations in overall quality to be impossible. Could literally just be that the talent and effectiveness of fast bowlers debuting in the 00s wasn't as good as those in the 90s. It happens.
Why is it hard to accept that there is simply variation? There is probably not a single reason across each country or even in each country. You're talking about a group only about 30 people at any one time, not more than a handful of which will be absolutely top flight.
At least credit me ****
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
It's not skewing the numbers at all. A lower number of 2000s debutants took 100+ wickets because a higher proportion of the 2000s bowlers were not good enough to take 100 wickets! There were many more Tests played in the 2000s than the 1990s (347 vs 464 ~ 33% increase), so if the quality of new fast bowling stocks was constant, there should be more 100+ wicket takers debuting in the 2000s than the 1990s.
The increase is due to two new sides debuting, and Sri Lanka getting many more matches than in 90s. If you factor out the above, the numbers would be very comparable.
 

Bolo.

International Vice-Captain
Interesting how the three bowlers with the least over per innings also have the best strikerates and worst ER, namely Waqar, Rabada and Steyn. Something similar in their MOs. They take wickets quickly but also as they tend to leak runs they dont go for long bowling spells perhaps
I think you are reaching a bit to try get reality to match a theory of yours.

Strike bowlers knock teams over faster. You don't get an opportunity to bowl as much when you have knocked a team over. This is particularly evident when you knock the tail over fast.

Strike bowlers typically bowl with higher intensity. The quicker bowlers on this list are typically bowling less.

You don't typically want to be taking an ATG striker off for a high ER. You are playing them with the understanding that they will get hit, but that they will cost you less runs per wicket. Same as the fact that you seldom want to take an ATG channel bowler off for lacking penetration. You don't want your 30 (or whatever) average bowlers getting a turn either way. The difference between the strike bowlers and the (eg.) channel bowlers is that the strike bowlers leave less time for the chaff to bowl.

FTR, Rabada's MO is nothing like Steyn/Waqar. His era, bowling partners, and home grounds push his figures that way. He's more like a worse version of Lillee or Donald.
 

Migara

Cricketer Of The Year
There are bowlers who bowl intense, short spells and take a lot of wickets. Waqar and Steyn are modern examples. There are another set of bowlers who are miserly, bowl very long spells, and hence take a lot of wickets. The latter ability is commendable one, as it needs supreme fitness to bowl fast / fast medium over after over for a long time. McGrath and Hadlee are examples. The issue with Ambrose is he falls neither to the groups, but still a great bowler.
 

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