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Countries with the most overseas born International players over the years??

Zinzan

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Is any country even close to England in this respect??

It amazes me how many overseas born internationals have represented England over the years. Not sure what the explanation is...Ironically they have often been some of their better international players..

Most over the years seem to be S.Africans which is explained by the Apartheid in the 70s and 80s...

Obvious ones that spring to mind are.......

Strauss (s.a)
Peterson (s.a)
Hussian (india)
Hick (zim)
Caddick (NZ)
G Jones (PNG)
Robin Smith (S.A)
Lamb (s.a)
Both Hollioakes (aust)
Allan Lamb (s.a)
Tony Greig (S.A)

Have I missed any??

I sure I have.....Has anyone got an explaination for this incredible phenomenon?

The only reasons I can think of are...

1) The S.A Apartheid 1970s-80s - which saw lots a good african cricketers wanting to play international cricket.

and

2) County cricket - which generally has more international players than anywhere else.


Is it just me or is it an incredibly high number??

Note..

NZ has a few Aussie born players I can think of

Sinclair
Styris
and
Canning

and
twose (eng)
Patel (kenya)

Any others for England or other countries??
 

Camel56

Banned
Australia had Keppler Wessels in the late 70s but no i dont think any country has nearly as many as England.
 

social

Hall of Fame Member
Mike Brierley - India
Ted Dexter - Italy
Jason Gallian - lived in Aus until 18 0r 19
Ian Grieg - SA
Martin Macuage (?) - Aus
Basil D'Oliveira - SA
Geoff Boycott - Yorkshire :D
 

Zinzan

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social said:
Mike Brierley - India
Ted Dexter - Italy
Jason Gallian - lived in Aus until 18 0r 19
Ian Grieg - SA
Martin Macuage (?) - Aus
Basil D'Oliveira - SA
Geoff Boycott - Yorkshire :D
Thanks (apart from Boycott 8-) )

Any Idea why England are so high??
 

Camel56

Banned
zinzan12 said:
Thanks (apart from Boycott 8-) )

Any Idea why England are so high??
Probably got something to do with their complete innability to produce quality players on a regular basis.
 

social

Hall of Fame Member
It used to be easier to obtain a visa for England than, say, Australia for certain nationalities. I am not sure whether this is still the case.

To qualify as an "English" player for fc purposes is no more difficult than proving the existence of a grand-parent that was born in England.

Gallian and McCauge felt that their career prospects were better in England.

The South Africans had no career prospects in their homeland for a 20 year period.
 

Son Of Coco

Hall of Fame Member
social said:
Mike Brierley - India
Ted Dexter - Italy
Jason Gallian - lived in Aus until 18 0r 19
Ian Grieg - SA
Martin Macuage (?) - Aus
Basil D'Oliveira - SA
Geoff Boycott - Yorkshire :D
Alan Mullaly is another one
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
Son Of Coco said:
Alan Mullaly is another one
Nope. Nor McCague or Craig White. All UK-born, but Oz raised. I think Mullaly was born in Southend in Essex. I would still classify them as Aussies, but not strictly foreign-born.

I think this is one field of cricket where we are undoubted world-leaders! We've also had the 3 Indian princes (Ranjitsinhji, Duleepsinhji & Nawab of Pataudi Senior) &, aside from those already mentioned, many of the great and the good of English cricket aren't quite as English as all that!

Foreign born that I know of (list not exhaustive by any means):

Lord Harris (Trinidad)
Gubby Allen (Oz)
Doublas Jardine (India, of Scottish antecedents)
Plum Warner (SA)
Freddy Brown (Peru!)
Colin Cowdrey (India)
Bob Woolmer (India)
Phil Edmonds (Zambia, then Northern Rhodesia)
Robin Jackman (India)
Derek Pringle (Kenya)
Chris Smith (Robin’s bro, SA)
Neal Radford (SA)
Gladstone Small (Barbados)
Demot Reeve (Hong Kong)
Phil De Freitas (Dominica)
Dev Malcolm (Jamaica)
Chris Lewis (Guyana)
Min Patel (India)
Usman Afzaal (Pakistan)


& that's without including yer Sweaties & yer Taffs!

I guess there are a number of reasons, some (like Small, Lewis, Malcolm & De Freitas, Patel, Afzaal) came to England with their parents as small children, others came from apartheid SA to play test cricket, some were born of English parents in the time of Empire (Cowdrey, Jackman, Woolmer) & some (especially those Oz-raised) have used UK connections to further their cricketing careers.
 

Chubb

International Debutant
I think the Empire is the major factor here. Most English-named south africans can trace their ancestry back to England and the same for Australia and New Zealand. Ranjii, Duleep and Pataudi were indian aristos and so probably felt very close to England. So, we ended up with a lot of people who could claim citizenship via descent a la Pietersen and others.
In addition to that there was and still is a lot of emigration by English people to South Africa, and the other countries and a lot back again from India etc. That is a good thing, and I think it's wrong to class Nasser and Solanki etc. as foreign players because I doubt either thinks they aren't English.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Chubb said:
I think the Empire is the major factor here. Most English-named south africans can trace their ancestry back to England and the same for Australia and New Zealand. Ranjii, Duleep and Pataudi were indian aristos and so probably felt very close to England. So, we ended up with a lot of people who could claim citizenship via descent a la Pietersen and others.
In addition to that there was and still is a lot of emigration by English people to South Africa, and the other countries and a lot back again from India etc. That is a good thing, and I think it's wrong to class Nasser and Solanki etc. as foreign players because I doubt either thinks they aren't English.
I think thats right upto a certain period in time. It also included Englishmen who were born abroad while their fathers were on active duty on different frontiers of the Empire.

After the end of the Raj, it has more to do with England, of all the major test playing nations, attracting more migrants from the subcontinent, for example than other countries whose second and third generation IN ADDITION are more inclined to taking up cricket than , say, soccer and have been competing for spots.

I am sure if USA was to have a team, it would include a very large number of immigrants too. More than UK.
 
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Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I really couldn't care less where people were born, or even raised, all I give a damn about is who they want to play for.
It truly astounds me that as late as 1991 you still had to be Yorkshire-born to play for us.
Such antiquated methods have clearly become untenable and these days seem unthinkable.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
SJS said:
I think thats right upto a certain period in time. It also included Englishmen who were born abroad while their fathers were on active duty on different frontiers of the Empire.

After the end of the Raj, it has more to do with England, of all the major test playing nations, attracting more migrants from the subcontinent, for example than other countries whose second and third generation IN ADDITION are more inclined to taking up cricket than , say, soccer and have been competing for spots.

I am sure if USA was to have a team, it would include a very large number of immigrants too. More than UK.
One thing that has surprised me is the lack of players of sub-continent extraction who’ve played for Oz. The only one I can think of is Dav Whatmore (Sri Lankan-born, Oz-raised I think). There is a fair ex-pat & first/second generation presence in Oz (not perhaps quite the level of the UK, but not negligible either) so this is a peculiar stat. Of course there is a very sizable ethnic Indian community in SA, but the reasons for their exclusion from international recognition (until Hashim Amla broke the mould v recently) are rather easier to ascertain.

Other foreign-born Oz players I know of are Clarrie Grimmett (NZ), Kepler Wessels (SA), Brendon Julian (NZ) & Andrew Symonds (UK).
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
BoyBrumby said:
One thing that has surprised me is the lack of players of sub-continent extraction who’ve played for Oz. .
I have thought about that too.

I think the first and probably most important reason is that immigration to NZL and Aus. from India is a much more recent phenomenon. Those who are there today are those who migrated not their grandsons as in the case of UK. I think that makes a big difference.

Its the children born to parents who migrate and even more the children born to parents, themselves born in the host country that reach the level of integration that is necessary before this transition takes place.

If you look at England, almost all of those who are playing for England are second or third generation migrants.

Give it time :)
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
The generation that actually migrates, concentrates on their job, business etc and try to make their children do the same since they want to be well established and work very hard at it. Its only after a couple of generations that they feel settled enough to allow themselves the 'luxury' as it were to follow a more normal growing up and participation by the youngsters into the various socio-cultural activities as a native would do.
 

BoyBrumby

Englishman
SJS said:
The generation that actually migrates, concentrates on their job, business etc and try to make their children do the same since they want to be well established and work very hard at it. Its only after a couple of generations that they feel settled enough to allow themselves the 'luxury' as it were to follow a more normal growing up and participation by the youngsters into the various socio-cultural activities as a native would do.
I would say that is unquestionably true.

It is interesting to compare the paths of the children & grandchildren of West Indian & sub-continent immigrants to the UK in sporting terms. Both groups arrived at roughly the same time (late 40s/early 50s-late 60s/early 70s) but their sporting progress has followed markedly different routes.

To look at the two teams who represented England yesterday in our Football (soccer) team we had Wes Brown, Ashley Cole, Jermaine Jenas, Kieron Dyer & Shaun Wright-Phillips, all of West Indian ancestry; in our cricket team we had Vikram Solanki & Kabir Ali, both of sub-continental extraction. No Asian Englishmen in our Football team & no black Englishmen in our cricket team. As their parents & grandparents originated from areas where cricket is king this (to me) is interesting.

Whether it speaks of more integration by the West Indian communities or stronger familial bonds in the Asian community I don’t know! Certainly black English cricketers seem to be altogether rarer than only a decade ago.
 

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