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Bradman to Sehwag - Redefining Great Batsmanship Through Defying Tradition

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NasserFan207

International Vice-Captain
I honestly don't feel Sehwag is all that special a player. Yes, he has excellent eye co-ordination (no better than a pieterson or Gilchrist however) a very aggressive approach and an excellent ability to keep going.

But the more modern cricket i watch, the less i feel we can judge a batsmans quality on totally flat tracks. It doesn't take bravery to attack Kulasekara or Matthews on this sort of pitch. Sorry. If anythings redefining batsmanship its the pitches and equipment.
 
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Uppercut

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In the end, people have to understand: technique is a means to an end. It is not the end itself. Once people accept this they'll enjoy all kinds of batsmen rather than get into tedious arguments about how x would do in y era.
Yeah, this is how I feel.
 

Shri

Mr. Glass
Learn something new everyday I guess. Never knew Bradman had a lot of critics against his technique.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
In the end, people have to understand: technique is a means to an end. It is not the end itself. Once people accept this they'll enjoy all kinds of batsmen rather than get into tedious arguments about how x would do in y era.
Uppercut said:
Yeah, this is how I feel.
So how would you two feel lets say in the upcoming next decade. We have a potential revival in quality pace attacks in AUS (Hilfenhaus/Siddle/Johnson) - WI (Taylor/Roach/Edwards) - SA (Steyn/M Morkel/Parnell) IND (Sharma/Sreesanth) - PAK (Asif/Aamer/Gul) - SRI (Malinga/Prasad/Thushara).

Along with potential decrease in flat decks (although it may still remain if the ICC doesn't do some restrcuting & actually do something about pitches worldwide) & the balance between bat & ball becomes a bit more even. Would you still look back at the last 10 years of batsmen with the same high regard?
 

Uppercut

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They scored bucketloads of runs, more runs than anyone else did. What the hell else were they supposed to do?
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
They scored bucketloads of runs, more runs than anyone else did. What the hell else were they supposed to do?
Ha the ideologies are definately coming out now..

Why did they score a bucketloads of runs more than their contemporaries?. Isn't it obvious the decline on quality pace attacks (outside of AUS) for this decade & increase in flat decks in the main reason for this?.

If you agree with the above then surely if pace bowling standards get better worldwide (along with better pitch standards) in next decade & a more even battle between bat & ball returns & averaging 50 is something only the upper echelon of batsmen can acomplish - rather than almost everyone who hits a purple patch.

Then surely you can't rate FTBs of this era in the same breath as the potential future dominant batsmen who would play in a era/period where they will also score runs than their contemporaries also - but rather under more difficult batting conditons - rather than on roads.
 
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Furball

Evil Scotsman
So how would you two feel lets say in the upcoming next decade. We have a potential revival in quality pace attacks in AUS (Hilfenhaus/Siddle/Johnson) - WI (Taylor/Roach/Edwards) - SA (Steyn/M Morkel/Parnell) IND (Sharma/Sreesanth) - PAK (Asif/Aamer/Gul) - SRI (Malinga/Prasad/Thushara).

Along with potential decrease in flat decks (although it may still remain if the ICC doesn't do some restrcuting & actually do something about pitches worldwide) & the balance between bat & ball becomes a bit more even. Would you still look back at the last 10 years of batsmen with the same high regard?
People look back at the batsmen of the 1930s with fondness and high regard, don't see why this generation will be any different.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
I had warned that there is going to be some controversial stuff here so I am not surprised. Look forward to the "complaints". Will try to answer.

Ok SJS sir, here i go. Its alot, so take your time to answer...


Now what do these figures tell us? First of all, it completely negates the suggestion that this kind of batting cant be sustained. Second, we still do not know whether this man has peaked or is their another level to reach. Third, we need to immediately stop talking of incredible luck, bashing of minnows and batting tracks to explain his phenomenal success. Lucky streaks do not last for ten years and 77 Tests (or multiple triple hundreds for that matter), the minnows theory isn't borne out by facts and the batting tracks are common to all batsmen. If we are going to justify our dislike for Virender Sehwag lets at least be smart with our 'logic'.
Well this part immediately stood out at me. Since if he has to play on flat decks & poor attacks 90% of the time, it really wouldn't be that hard for him to pile up these kind of runs all the time TBH. Is that too harsh of an assesment?. I certainly dont think it is...



Everyone waited for him to fail and fall at the next hurdle - in the longer version of the game, on wickets away from home, on Australian tracks, on English and South African conditions, against the world's wiliest spinners and then against the fastest bowlers. It never happened. He just kept on going from strength to strength
With all due respect SJS sir, I dont think this accurate reflection of his performances in AUS, ENG or SA at all.

- Firstly opening in SA 06/07 againts a very good attack in bowler freindly conditions he averaged 14 for the series. Thats not my opinion, thats what happened.

My personal opinion of his first series in SA 2001 was that it was an average SA attack on flat pitches. Pollock was the only good bowler - Nitni had not peaked yet - Hayward was wayward & Kallis & Klusener where passed their peaks a bowlers (Klusener by then was bowling off-cutters from a short run, he wasn't that bowler than is remembered so fondly from the 99 WC for example).

- His record on his only tour to ENG 2002 where he averaged 39. As my home team i can say without a shadow of doubt than ENG attack Sehwag faced in 2002 was a poor one on flat wickets. None of Hoggard/Flintoff/Jones/Harmison had peaked yet as bowlers - while Caddick was a shadow of his formed self. They all peaked during the famous tour to WI 2004 en route to the 2005 Ashes win. Most knowledgable English fans should know this.

He did not tour England with IND 2007, because he dropped due to a string of very bad performances on bowler friendly pitches/quality pace attacks in 2006. See:

- Karachi 06

- Kingston 06

- Along with his failures vs ENG 05/06 & SA 06/07

When Sehwag did face quality England attack in 05/06 in Indian on some suprisingly bowler friendly pitches by historical Indian standards. He averaged 19, with Matthew Hoggard at the peak of powers & much improved from the young boring English seamer than Sehwag encountered in 2002, exposing all his technical woes during that series.


- His record in AUS. Well the runs he scored in 03/04 was againts the worst AUS pace bowling attack of the dominant years of 95 to 2006/07 (outside of the pace attack that toured IND IN 98) on some real roads. No McGrath/Warne, Lee was a poor test bowler & Gillespie was playing injured. The likes of Bracken, Williams, Bichel, MacGill (with a proven poor record againts good players of spin bowling) was no match for Sehwag & that Indian batting line-up.

I rate his 151 vs AUS on the recent tour 08/09 mainly because he showed great mental ability a defense given that was his return test match after being dropped for over a year. But it was on the traditioanlly flat Adelaide pitch & scores in that test proves this.


The bowler pitches the third ball on the middle and off stump coming slightly in and he stays on the front foot his body leaning slightly forward, head over the left foot and flicks it from the meat of the bat past mid wicket. The fourth ball, an attempted bouncer on the middle stump, rises only chest high. Sehwag moves his weight to the back foot and pulls it almost straight back past mid on with complete nonchalance.

I agree overall with your hypotetical synopsis of how Sehwag usually bats againts a bowler. But thIS partical one i disagree with slightly, since seeing Sehwag over the years againts quality fast bowlers & reading about the instances i have not - he clearly has a glaring weakness againts inswingers or vs bowlers who naturally bring the ball back into right-handers like a Ntini. Plus he plays short pitched bowling very poorly, i dont ever recall Sehwag playing a hook short or a pull short (behind square leg) with any conviction againts the quicks.

Look at this cricinfo descriptions of his dismissals in past test matches againts such bowlers in such conditions:

1. Mumbai 2004

cricinfo said:
Gambhir, Virender Sehwag's Delhi team-mate, thus became his fifth opening partner, but the association didn't get off to the most auspicious start. Gambhir flicked the first ball he faced, a leg-stump half-volley from McGrath, on to Simon Katich's shin at forward short leg, and after a single to fine leg had taken him off strike, Sehwag slashed the first ball he faced to gully where Hauritz put down a sharp chance to his left.

Another uppish prod past the slip cordon suggested that Sehwag was living dangerously, and McGrath was soon to get his man. After a straight-drive was stroked back at him, McGrath feigned an angry throw back to Adam Gilchrist while catching Sehwag's eye. The next ball was full, moved in slightly off the seam and Sehwag's airy swish did nothing but provide a yawning chasm between pad and bat for the ball to pass through before it cannoned into the stumps.
2. Karachi 2006

cricinfo said:
Mohammad Asif to Sehwag, OUT, gone! this is seam bowling at its best! good length delivery, pitched in line with the off stump and seaming in late, Sehwag is comprehensively beaten and the ball crashes into the woodwork, India two down and in deep trouble here

V Sehwag b Mohammad Asif 4 (9m 5b 1x4 0x6) SR: 80.00

3. Nagpur 2006

cricinfo said:
Hoggard to Sehwag, OUT, bowled'm! good length delivery, the one that nips back into the right-hander, Sehwag drives on the up, ball moves in just enough to beat the bat and sneaks in through the gap between bat and pad, stumps are shattered and Sehwag walks back for a duck! India one down!

V Sehwag b Hoggard 0 (19m 13b 0x4 0x6) SR: 0.00
4. Mohali 2006

cricinfo said:
Harmison to Sehwag, OUT, gone!!! Sehwag goes for a low score yet agiain, a short one nails him this time, Harmison follows his bouncer with yet another short delivery, rising just about Sehwag's shoulder height, Sehwag goes back to defend but plays the wrong line, the ball kisses the glove on the way through to Geriant Jones, its first blow by England!

V Sehwag c †Jones b Harmison 11 (19m 13b 2x4 0x6) SR: 84.61

5. Mumabi 2006

cricinfo said:
Hoggard to Sehwag, OUT, first strike! short rising delivery, pitched outside the off stump and coming in with the angle, too good a delivery for Sehwag, who fends at it awkwardly, ball clips the shoulder of the bat and goes straight to Shah at first slip, that's big wicket - India in trouble here!

V Sehwag c Shah b Hoggard 6 (27m 15b 1x4 0x6) SR: 40.00

cricinfo said:
Anderson to Sehwag, OUT, another one bites the dust! good length delivery, pitched close to the off stump line and reversing in, Sehwag is bit late on it and the ball hits the pad plumb in front of the stumps, bowling change works for Flintoff, India six down.

V Sehwag lbw b Anderson 0 (20m 16b 0x4 0x6) SR: 0.00

6. Kingston 06

cricinfo said:
Taylor to Sehwag, OUT, he's gone! India two down! Sabina Park is aliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiive! Delivered from wide of the stumps, full and quick, jags in from off and traps Sehwag right in front of the stumps, that ball kept low and Sehwag is clueless, everyone up in appeal and the umpire raises the dreaded finger, West Indies on a roll, Taylor on fire, India have plenty to ponder, their second-innings record seems to be catching up...what a start, make that 22 wickets in a day-and-a-half, folks...dont move from your seats

V Sehwag lbw b Taylor 4 (32m 6b 1x4 0x6) SR: 66.66

Durban 2006

cricinfo said:
Ntini to Sehwag, OUT, Gone this time! Straight to Smith at first slip. Lands on a length, outside the offstump, comes in a touch, Sehwag jabs at it as he plays slightly inside the line, bat brushes the pad before making contact, and the outer edge is swallowed up by Smith. SA celebrate and why not. India lose their first wicket. India need another 340 runs, SA need 9 wickets.

V Sehwag c Smith b Ntini 8 (17m 11b 1x4 0x6) SR: 72.72

Ahmedabad 2008


cricinfo said:
Steyn to Sehwag, OUT, what an important wicket for South Africa! Steyn pitches it outside off and gets it to come back inwards, Sehwag shapes to cut but is cramped for room and he manages a thick inside edge onto his offstump

V Sehwag b Steyn 6 (23m 12b 1x4 0x6) SR: 50.00



cricinfo said:
Ntini to Sehwag, OUT, first blood to Ntini, he delivers that from wide of the crease and lands it on a good length just outside the line of offstump and gets it to move in slightly with the angle, Sehwag gets a half stride forward and meets the ball in the middle of the pads in line with middle and leg stumps, Hill is convinced

V Sehwag lbw b Ntini 17 (32m 20b 1x4 2x6) SR: 85.00

Kanpur 2008

cricinfo said:
Steyn to Sehwag, OUT, lbw! South Africa are thrilled! Steyn follows several short balls with a good length one that pitches just outside off and angles into the right-hander, Sehwag hardly moves his feet while trying to defend and gets hit in line with off stump, that ball is heading for middle stump and Asad Rauf raises the finger in a flash

V Sehwag lbw b Steyn 8 (21m 14b 2x4 0x6) SR: 57.14

Delhi 2008

cricinfo said:
Lee to Sehwag, OUT, and he's gone! Lee strikes, rapping a leaden-footed Sehwag on the crease, he didn't move his feet at all, bat coming down way too late as the ball pitches on a length and strikes him on the front pad in front of middle and leg, Lee is off in celebration and Aleem Dar raises the finger

V Sehwag lbw b Lee 1 (10m 2b 0x4 0x6) SR: 50.00

cricinfo said:
Lee to Sehwag, OUT, bowled 'em! Lee dislodges Sehwag for the second time in the match, pitching on a fuller length and getting the ball to nip back in a shade, Sehwag's feet go nowhere and he gets a little inside edge back onto the stumps

V Sehwag b Lee 16 (37m 17b 2x4 0x6) SR: 94.11
This test pitch was road. But Lee wasn't exactly bowling well, but he was still able to expose technically in both innings.


Chennai 2008

cricinfo said:
Anderson to Sehwag, OUT, Anderson's got Sehwag playing a feeble shot! Pitches back of a length and comes into Sehwag, who stands leaden-footed and tries to play a cramped guide to third man but only chops it back onto his stumps .. Anderson is thrilled, for thats a dangerous man to dismiss early

V Sehwag b Anderson 9 (24m 16b 2x4 0x6) SR: 56.25

cricinfo said:
Welegedara to Sehwag, OUT, long thought and then its given! Welegedara pitches it on about middle and off, 134k, just shapes it in wee bit and strikes Sehwag flush on the front pad as he gets two-thirds forward, bat just late to come down, and after taking some time to ascertain whether there was any bat on it Tony Hill raises his finger, and on replays it shows he is spot on, that was hitting middle and off

V Sehwag lbw b Welegedara 16 (31m 11b 3x4 0x6) SR: 145.45

This fault was also seemingly prevalent since the NZ tour of 2002/03 as well (although one can argue these pitches where probably on the very bowler freindly). Overall this is one mode of dismissal againts the quality fast-bowlers than have exposed by various team in bowler friendly conditions over & over.

The examples i always use is his 254 vs PAK 06 & 317 vs SA. He smoked Akhtar, Steyn etc on absolute roads. But later in those sameseries as those cricinfo quotes highlight - when the pitches become bowler friendly for those same very good bowlers - he has looked far less convincing. It was basically like they where bowling to two different players.



SJS said:
What's the issue then? What is it about his batting that bothers you so much? I ask the traditionalist lurking within me.

Oh, I tell myself, he hits too frequently in the air, he slashes wildly sending the ball in a wide arc rather than aiming for a precise area as great test batsmen do, he hits across the line far too often, his stroke play is premeditated and does not play the ball on merit, has virtually no footwork and is too damn aggressive to survive in bowler friendly conditions
Indeed & as far as i know, he has yet to survive & dominate a quality pace attack in bowler friendly conditions.

SJS said:
Lets face it. He is not a technical cipher or anything remotely like it. He just does a few things differently. He does not move his feet all the time but does plenty of other things right. He is pre-meditated only in his aggressive intent not in his stroke play. My hypothesis is that Sehwag does not assess the length early (particularly off the faster bowlers) when he first comes in to bat. With this constraint an early foot movement would end up second guessing the bowler and being pre-meditated in the choice of stroke. He, therefore, employs another method. Without moving his feet he waits that extra fraction of a second till he has assessed where he needs to make contact with the ball and then, with no time left for elaborate foot movement, uses his transfer of body weight, still head, fabulous hand eye co-ordination and free flowing bat plays the shot best suited to the delivery. Unable to see the ball early like Tendulkar does, he still manages to give expression to his aggressive intent. Why should he be denounced for that?
He shouldn't. That style works/has worked very well for him on flat decks againts poor pace attacks this decade. But as you rightfully said in this same quote:

My hypothesis is that Sehwag does not assess the length early (particularly off the faster bowlers) when he first comes in to bat. With this constraint an early foot movement would end up second guessing the bowler and being pre-meditated in the choice of stroke.

Seeing him bat againts the top pacers, that 100% on the mark & this premidation when the ball is moving about has gotten him into trouble all the time in bowler freindly conditions.



SJS said:
Instead of being so critical of Sehwag we could actually use his phenomenal success and his fantastic strike rate to understand what is happening to our game.

Not only are wickets far more batsmen friendly, the bats are better and the boundaries getting smaller. The risks associated with unorthodox batting are much reduced. The definition of percentage cricket has changed. Modern day conditions are perfect for more aggressive methods. They are also the graveyards of bowlers. This is what Sehwag has shown us.
Indeed but as i asked another poster in this thread earlier. How would you two feel lets say in the upcoming next decade. We have a potential revival in quality pace attacks in AUS (Hilfenhaus/Siddle/Johnson) - WI (Taylor/Roach/Edwards) - SA (Steyn/M Morkel/Parnell) IND (Sharma/Sreesanth) - PAK (Asif/Aamer/Gul) - SRI (Malinga/Prasad/Thushara).

Along with potential decrease in flat decks (although it may still remain if the ICC doesn't do some restrcuting & actually do something about pitches worldwide) & the balance between bat & ball becomes a bit more even. Would you still look back at the last 10 years of batsmen like Sehwag with the same high regard?
 
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aussie

Hall of Fame Member
People look back at the batsmen of the 1930s with fondness and high regard, don't see why this generation will be any different.
Really?. Last i checked the 1930s, 20s & pre WW1 batsmen (except Bradman, Hammod & Headley also maybe McCabe) have more issues surrounding them vs batsmen of this 2000s era.

Since the pitches where probably flatter & no real quality fast bowlers/fast-bowling combo existed then except for Larwood/Voce & Gregory/McDonald, which is worst than this decade.
 
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SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Ok SJS sir, here i go. Its alot, so take your time to answer...
Well. Yes thats a lot but I will answer. However, I will not answer every single sentence or every single reference to a match since that tends to miss the broader point and there is always a broader point. If there isn't one then the post/article under discussion isn't worth the paper its written on but if there is then the reader's mising it is not the writer's fault. So I will tell you what my broader point in that feature was and then try to address what you have said in that context.

I have said at the outset that I am a traditionalist. That should make it clear what I think of modern day cricket and the massive runs scored in today's game by today's batsmen including Sehwag. Everyone knows where I stand on this and wrote an earlier feature - An Open Letter to the ICC - exactly based on my anguish for the state of affairs. You may not know but after Murali Vijay got out that day, I did not watch the rest of the second day's play. This has nothing to do with Sehwag but my disappointment with the types of wickets and the toothless bowling that batsmen face today. That Sehwag bats invariably on true bating surfaces, does not need an Einstein to discover. This feature was beyond that accepted fact.

I also know the flaws in Sehwag's batting and have mentioned his weakness to the incoming ball but that's like talking of Bradman's weakness against the sharp in-swing of Alec Bedser which is well recorded. The fact remains that there were not enough bowlers in the Don's twenty year long career to exploit it enough to make him look like an ordinary player. The same, as I have clearly indicated in the feature is the case with Sehwag. I quote from my feature.

Yes it can leave him vulnerable to the sharply in coming delivery but let the bowlers around the world exploit it often enough to hurt him and then lets see how he responds to a new and real threat.

Every batsman, howsoever great, will have weaknesses but if they remain unexploited due to the quality of bowlers or the type of wickets that widely prevail (or a combination of both) we have to accept that as a given and assess the player on the basis of what the rest of the cricketing world confronts him with. Otherwise we leave ourselves open to the same criticism as is now made of all those who criticised Bradman, with absolutely valid arguments mind you, of being weak on sticky wickets. This is what that feature was about. A player taking full advantage of the favourable conditions he faced and playing the percentages smartly, not just while facing a ball or in an innings, but even in an overall career.

This particular feature was turning out to be even longer than it is. I will put here one of the bits I removed.

I have always felt sad that Larwood never played again for England and Bradman wasn’t tested with more truly fast stuff again. Not because I think Bradman wasn’t up to it but because I value a contest between an immovable object and an irresistible force much more than a tantalising figure like 99.94. ICC is today denying the current generation, and maybe future ones, of the real great cricket which can only come when a great batsman and a great bowler face each other on a level playing field.

The last Sri Lanka India Test may have been an occasion to toast Sehwag, truly a modern day great but for me that innings and that match was sad because I saw one of the game’s all time great bowlers being given the hiding of his life when we should have been toasting the end of a great career and a great era in spin bowling.

I wish that the world's best batsmen, not just Sehwag, were faced with the best spinners, and on spiteful wickets, fast bowlers like Imran ,Hadlee and Lillee in conditions that promoted sharp lateral movement. Only then would we know what truly great batting is all about. That is why Gavaskar 95 in losing cause in his last Test innings is also considered his finest. Unfotunately, as I wrote, we need to use Sehwag's batting . . .
his phenomenal success and his fantastic strike rate to understand what is happening to our game.

Not only are wickets far more batsmen friendly, the bats are better and the boundaries getting smaller. The risks associated with unorthodox batting are much reduced. The definition of percentage cricket has changed. Modern day conditions are perfect for more aggressive methods. They are also the graveyards of bowlers. This is what Sehwag has shown us.

I too do not like the fact that bowlers are slaughtered the way they are but that's not Sehwag's doing. Its also not going to change any day soon unless ICC decides to restore the balance between bat and ball.

The feature does not deny the easy conditions for batsmen as they exist but uses Brdaman's example to show why we should not decry Sehwag's making best use of it just as we have, over time, learnt not to decry Bradman's doing the same in a different context.

People seem to forget how easy batting conditions were in Bradman's time. Even in his first ever Test series (at home 1928-29), 6826 runs were scored in those five Tests ! Ten batsmen (five on each side) averaged above fifty, two of them above hundred. Another two averaged in the 40's and eight others in the 20's and 30's ! This is amazing run getting. The series had no draws but that was because the Tests lasted till they ended. The second Test lasted six days, the third and fourth lasted seven days and the final test ended on the eighth day ! Surely those wickets were not just made to last but they did. The fourth innings scores in the last three Tests were 332, 336 and 287.

England won the series with a decisive 4-0 margin and were leading 4-0 at the end of the fourth Test and yet their leading new ball bowlers Larwood and Tate averaged in the 40's. For Australia there best bowler and by far the leading wicket taker, Grimmett averaged 44.5 for his 23 wickets.

The point I am making is not to compare Sehwag with Bradman or the bowlers of those times with those we have today but to show that whenever batting tracks appear as they have more often than not since the 1920's, the batsmen will make merry. Hammond, England's greatest batsman barring Jack Hobbs scored 904 runs in that series. He never did it again.

Coming to Sehwag's performance on helpful tracks or in difficult conditions as you have mentioned, without going into specifics, my point remains, I have conceded that "a more defensive batsman may last longer in more bowler friendly conditions" but, as I have gone on to say, "Unless bowler friendly wickets become the norm there does not seem any reason for Sehwag to temper his aggression".

So I accept that his present style of batting will be found wanting in bowler friendly conditions. I don,t need to be told that. In fact, I bemoan the fact that such conditions do not exist. I wish they did so that not just Sehwag but even the Tednulkar's and Pontings besides the lesser batsmen of the day, had to raise their game a few notches higher and that would be cricket I would wake up whole nights to watch. Today I dont watch it much even though I am retired. So I am not in disagreement about batting tracks, his relative vulnerability in bowling conditions but why should he not bat like he does if such conditions are so rare that he can averages in the fifties, score double and triple hundreds and do it at a run a ball?

Thats all I am trying to say. :)
 
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Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
Ha the ideologies are definately coming out now..

Why did they score a bucketloads of runs more than their contemporaries?. Isn't it obvious the decline on quality pace attacks (outside of AUS) for this decade & increase in flat decks in the main reason for this?.

If you agree with the above then surely if pace bowling standards get better worldwide (along with better pitch standards) in next decade & a more even battle between bat & ball returns & averaging 50 is something only the upper echelon of batsmen can acomplish - rather than almost everyone who hits a purple patch.

Then surely you can't rate FTBs of this era in the same breath as the potential future dominant batsmen who would play in a era/period where they will also score runs than their contemporaries also - but rather under more difficult batting conditons - rather than on roads.
Listen, it's very simple; if those that were supposedly better score less runs than those that are supposedly worse, then you can no longer devalue those runs.

Not every innings is the same, there are more difficult innings and easier ones. Don't let me fool you into thinking I think all performances are equal.

However, over 10 years, the fact that someone like Tendulkar, without minnows, is averaging 47 and his teammate (Sehwag) is averaging in the 50s, says it all about supposed easiness to score runs.

There is no "he cashes in on flat-tracks more than others", because flat tracks are found easier for everybody not just a select few.
 

SJS

Hall of Fame Member
Its very interesting to compare how Sehwag fares with his two great team mates in matches where he played with them.. With Dravid, Sehwag has played in 71 Tests. These are the comparative figures.

Code:
[B][SIZE="3"]Player	Runs    Ave	100	50+	SR[/B][/SIZE]  

Sehwag	6228	53.23	17	36	80.6

Dravid	5970	55.79	17	45	43.4
With Sachin he has played in 61 games. The figures . . .

Code:
[B]Player	Runs	Ave	100	50+	SR[/B]

Sehwag	5447	53.93	15	31	80.1

Sachin	4467	49.08	12	30	52.9
The only glaring difference, as far as the stats are concerned, is the strike rate.
 

Ikki

Hall of Fame Member
And the average between his and Tendulkar's...which would be even more if you removed minnows.
 

ret

International Debutant
I remember doing an analysis sometime back abt Sehwag in games involving him with Dravid and him with Tendulkar .... At that point (iirc) he beat both Dravid and Tendulkar to 5000 runs (which is quite an achievement considering how good Ten and Dravid are)
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
Listen, it's very simple; if those that were supposedly better score less runs than those that are supposedly worse, then you can no longer devalue those runs.
Not too sure what you mean here big Ikki...


However, over 10 years, the fact that someone like Tendulkar, without minnows, is averaging 47 and his teammate (Sehwag) is averaging in the 50s, says it all about supposed easiness to score runs.
Well mainly because Tendy has had his tennis-elbow woes & seemingly in decline between WI 2002 (trinidad test) to about PAK 07/08. It was pretty much a consensus that he was passes his 90s peak.

Its only when IND toured AUS 07/08 to now that the great man has begun to look like his 90s self again. So no comparison can be drawn here, just because Sehwag averages more this era.

There is no "he cashes in on flat-tracks more than others", because flat tracks are found easier for everybody not just a select few.
It is easier for everybody yes. But only a few batsmen this era have proven themselves not only be be good on flat decks but they few times where bowler friendly decks have been present in this 2000s era.
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
So I accept that his present style of batting will be found wanting in bowler friendly conditions. I don,t need to be told that. In fact, I bemoan the fact that such conditions do not exist. I wish they did so that not just Sehwag but even the Tednulkar's and Pontings besides the lesser batsmen of the day, had to raise their game a few notches higher and that would be cricket I would wake up whole nights to watch. Today I dont watch it much even though I am retired. So I am not in disagreement about batting tracks, his relative vulnerability in bowling conditions but why should he not bat like he does if such conditions are so rare that he can averages in the fifties, score double and triple hundreds and do it at a run a ball?

Thats all I am trying to say. :)
Yes sir i hear you all the way. But as i asked before regarding the standard of pitches presently & quality of bowlers.


How would you two feel lets say in the upcoming next decade. We have a potential revival in quality pace attacks in AUS (Hilfenhaus/Siddle/Johnson) - WI (Taylor/Roach/Edwards) - SA (Steyn/M Morkel/Parnell) IND (Sharma/Sreesanth) - PAK (Asif/Aamer/Gul) - SRI (Malinga/Prasad/Thushara).

Along with potential decrease in flat decks (although it may still remain if the ICC doesn't do some restrcuting & actually do something about pitches worldwide) & the balance between bat & ball becomes a bit more even. Would you still look back at the last 10 years of batsmen like Sehwag with the same high regard?



Also on your point with Bedser troubling Bradman with the inswinger, was this a fault exposed on normal pitches or on sticky wickets? & what was Bradman's head-to-head record vs Bedser.

Finally yes i wish also that Larwood had played more after bodyline 1932, that would have been superb to read how he would have tackled Larwood after that series.
 

ret

International Debutant
aussie said:
How would you two feel lets say in the upcoming next decade. We have a potential revival in quality pace attacks in AUS (Hilfenhaus/Siddle/Johnson) - WI (Taylor/Roach/Edwards) - SA (Steyn/M Morkel/Parnell) IND (Sharma/Sreesanth) - PAK (Asif/Aamer/Gul) - SRI (Malinga/Prasad/Thushara).

Along with potential decrease in flat decks (although it may still remain if the ICC doesn't do some restrcuting & actually do something about pitches worldwide) & the balance between bat & ball becomes a bit more even. Would you still look back at the last 10 years of batsmen like Sehwag with the same high regard?
*Ret butts in*

To answer to that Q, I would like to draw parallel with bowling. Conditions were bowler friendly (than they are now, that is going by what many armchair experts perceive) in say 70s and 80s, so would we stop looking at those bowlers who bowled in that era with same high regards compared with bowlers who are doing well in batting friendly conditions. No we don't! We still rate Hadlee, the WI pace attack, Lilliee, Imran, etc highly despite them bowling in a comparatively bowler friendly era. A good bowling performance now on a batting friendly pitch doesn't downgrade bowling performances of those in past eras. Hopefully that answers your (pointless) question!

Also why would anyone want to assume that Sehwag (when you say batsman like Sehwag) wouldn't do well in such conditions (or others would fare better)? Even if the conditions change Sehwag would still be one of the top batsmen!

To me it appears as if you keep inventing different criteria to downgrade achievements of Sehwag. Keep on digging till you find something! :D
 
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ret

International Debutant
In an era where armchair experts spam the internet, I won't be surprised when forums become a place to rate cricketer based on how a batsman did well in bowler friendly conditions and a bowler did well in batsman friendly conditions. Runs scored and wkts taken are beginning to sound irrelevant and only thing that matters is conditions .... Also makes me wonder how many runs/wkts in tests a player would have to miss out based on conditions

Some of the points that I read makes me wonder as if some are taking watching cricket as watching (/playing) a video game! Generally, there is no perfection and one has to understand that
 

aussie

Hall of Fame Member
*Ret butts in*

To answer to that Q, I would like to draw parallel with bowling. Conditions were bowler friendly (than they are now, that is going by what many armchair experts perceive) in say 70s and 80s, so would we stop looking at those bowlers who bowled in that era with same high regards compared with bowlers who are doing well in batting friendly conditions. No we don't! We still rate Hadlee, the WI pace attack, Lilliee, Imran, etc highly despite them bowling in a comparatively bowler friendly era. A good bowling performance now on a batting friendly pitch doesn't downgrade bowling performances of those in past eras. Hopefully that answers your (pointless) question!
You do IND where roads for much of 70s & 80s s they are today & that is where the great WI pacers took alot of wickets. Any of great fast-bowlers of the past from Larwood- Donald could have taken wickets on the roads of this 2000s era.

You had roads in every era. But it has clearly gotten worse this decade. The parallel is that batsmen in 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s had fair balance between roads & bowler friendly decks along with quality fast bowlers in general

Also why would anyone want to assume that Sehwag (when you say batsman like Sehwag) wouldn't do well in such conditions (or others would fare better)? Even if the conditions change Sehwag would still be one of the top batsmen!

Because he failed in pretty much 100% of the time in bowler friendly conditions againts quality attacks that he has played in his career. Simple.

Why you have had top batsmen like Ponting, Dravid, KP etc who have done well this era on roads & bowler friendly decks againts quality pace attacks. These are the upper echelon of batsmen, not Sehwag & all the other FTBs.

To me it appears as if you keep inventing different criteria to downgrade achievements of Sehwag. Keep on digging till you find something! :D
No sir, that point to SJS was about batsmen in general in this 2000s era, not only Sehwag.
 
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