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Botham vs Flintoff?

Who was the better Test match all-rounder?


  • Total voters
    51
  • Poll closed .

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Just one of those blokes, I think, who never did a huge amount with the ball. He relied on seam movement, especially before 2005, and as I said, when he swung the ball, he was infinitely more dangerous as a bowler. So many of his really good wickets in 2005 came from hooping out and in-swingers rather than seam-up outside off. Probably would have had a better record had he been playing for Australia because I reckon his style of bowling would have suited Aussie conditions.
Oh yeah, of course, but even in 2005, when he was bowling as well as I've ever seen pretty much anyone bowl over the course of a series, he still took just a single five-for.
 

Burgey

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Botham's early-mid 80s hair style and 'tache >>>>>>>>> the Flintoff reverse skunk hair thingy, imo.
 

Burgey

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Pat Rafter, Aussie tennis player, has dark hair witha white patch in it - he said it makes him feel like a skunk. Flintoff is fair haired, with a dark spot in it, hence the "reverse skunk". Sorry - very obtuse on my part.
 

wpdavid

International Coach
Oh yeah, of course, but even in 2005, when he was bowling as well as I've ever seen pretty much anyone bowl over the course of a series, he still took just a single five-for.
Just one of those things - maybe it's linked to being part of a five man attack when he was at his pomp. I wouldn't base a whole argument on it though, anymore than I'd write off Mike Hendrick for never achieving a five-for in test cricket.

I'm not sure I can add a great deal to what was said in the first few days of this thread. Obviously Botham would get my vote. Fred will just have to settle for bowling the best over I've ever seen from an Englishman (his first in Aus 2nd innings at Edgbaston) and the finest spell (at the Oval in the same series).
 

FRAZ

International Captain
I just don 't really understand one thing that why a player from the past with comprison to a far better player from today , always wins the polls over here !
Dhoni is better than Merchant but if poll will be made then Dhoni will definately lose . Same might happen in the case of Richard Hadlee and Shoaib Akhtar ........
Why Pasag why ?
 

Zinzan

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If we are talking test cricket ...Botham by a country mile. To me Flintoff has only ever had that one outstanding series. For mine Chris Cairns was also a better test cricketer than Flintoff ( assuming Flintoff's career ended now), and I would also have Cairns behind Botham.
 

UncleTheOne

U19 Captain
flintoff's 2005 ashes effort vs. bothams 1981 ashes effort.

although i feel this will be just as one sided as the botham-flintoff question, not that it takes anything away from flintoff's superhuman efforts in that series mind.
 

UncleTheOne

U19 Captain
If we are talking test cricket ...Botham by a country mile. To me Flintoff has only ever had that one outstanding series. For mine Chris Cairns was also a better test cricketer than Flintoff ( assuming Flintoff's career ended now), and I would also have Cairns behind Botham.

with all due respect i can only assume you haven't seen much of flintoff then.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
flintoff's 2005 ashes effort vs. bothams 1981 ashes effort.

although i feel this will be just as one sided as the botham-flintoff question, not that it takes anything away from flintoff's superhuman efforts in that series mind.
TBH I don't really think there's a hell of a lot between them. You could say Botham circa '81 started badly, turned the series on its head as his own form turned, then was the principal force behind keeping-up the momentum - Flintoff did the same in '05.

If anything, Flintoff's Edgbaston turnaround, though far less dramatic and instantaneous as Botham's Headingley one, was more impressive still, scoring twin half-centuries and taking seven (should have been eight) -for including big efforts in both innings.
 

Swervy

International Captain
If anything, Flintoff's Edgbaston turnaround, though far less dramatic and instantaneous as Botham's Headingley one, was more impressive still, scoring twin half-centuries and taking seven (should have been eight) -for including big efforts in both innings.
you what????

As good as Flintoff Edgbaston 05 was, it comes nowhere near to Botham Headingley 81.

People tend to forget the 6 wickets in the 1st Aust innings and the 50 in Englands first innings
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
Despite these, though, Australia were running away with the game until the 149*.

Flintoff's Edgbaston 2005 meant England were always bossing that game (and had he had Kasprowicz given lbw or caught third-man as he should have both, the game wouldn't have gone anywhere near so tight as it did). As I say - he didn't engineer a spectacular, instantaneous turnaround the way Botham did at Headingley in 1981 - but his calibre (along with the likes of Trescothick, Strauss and Pietersen) meant he didn't need to.

Botham's 149* at Headingley > any one batting or bowling performance of Flintoff's at Edgbaston. But the fact was, it took two miraculous performances - Botham's innings and Willis' eight-for - to turn that game. 2005 was more of a team effort, but Flintoff was more involved in it throughout.
 

Swervy

International Captain
, but Flintoff was more involved in it throughout.
I am struggling to see how anyone could ever be more involved in a test match than someone who took 6 wickets in the first innings, then 50 out of 174, and 149*

As I say, Flintoffs all round effort was superb but can probably be matched by scores of other efforts throughout the history of test cricket, Bothams was Headingley effort will be talked about for as long as cricket exists.
 

Richard

Cricket Web Staff Member
I'd hope Flintoff's Edgbaston 2005 will be talked about through the annals of history too - though given much of the rest of 1981 was unremarkable and almost all the rest of 2005 was gripping, it stands-out less.

How to put it best... Botham may have been involved in the game and done brilliantly. But despite this, his side were still well on track to lose, very heavily indeed, until his second-innings effort with the bat. Flintoff, on the other hand, was the principle figure in keeping his side on top throughout the game.
 

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