Best Test Team In The World?

[Jono]

Personally reckon this test going on is important. India very much unlikely to win it. But they should not lose it.

If they do, I fully accept there are question marks as to whether they are clearly number 1.

 

[subshakerz]

SA are no doubt better away than India, though their reliance on Steyn is a bit worrying. But there's not much India can do about whether Bond was playing or not, fact is, we played well and deserved to win that series comfortably. England away was also a very good win for India. It's also heartening that we managed to fight back and square both our home series against SA despite getting thrashed by an innings to go behind. There's not much in it at all, SA probably just shade it because they don't rely much on conditions to get results as BoyBrumby pointed out.

Again, you have to look at India under Dhoni and compare with SA under Smith. Agreed, SA rely on Steyn, but Steyn is the biggest difference between the two teams. I doubt India would win in Australia given that their present attack failed to do so in 2007.

And let's not forget that India's middle order is set to retire soon, while SA have youth on their side.

 

[Sir Alex]

Again, you have to look at India under Dhoni and compare with SA under Smith. Agreed, SA rely on Steyn, but Steyn is the biggest difference between the two teams. I doubt India would win in Australia given that their present attack failed to do so in 2007.

And let's not forget that India's middle order is set to retire soon, while SA have youth on their side.

India under Dhoni is yet to lose a series home or away. There is no shame in losing with a bowler and half in Sri Lanka 1-0, as contingent resources cannot be expected to fill in immediately. But as Jono said, 2-0 suggests a slightly different picture.

We are looking weak purely because injuries have hit our first choice players at once. Harbhajan, Sreesanth, Zaheer, and Gambhir are world class operators and definitely it is going to hurt. Still 1-0 would be comparitively a better result than expected in the said circumstances.

Oh and we've been hearing this "middle order about to retire" for the last 3-4 years now. And it is not like we have not had high profile retirements during our ascendancy to top rank. We lost an experienced campaigner in Ganguly (replaced by the dire Yuvraj), and the peerless Anil Kumble, who has been our biggest matchwinner for more than a decade and half.

SA has had the away wins, and draws I admit, but at the same time, they've been vulnerable on the home front as well. They lost to Australia emphatically and failed to win against a much inferior English side as well. Suggests they too have their share of issues.

Finally I do agree SA holds a miniscule advantage, and that is purely owing to that superman Steyn.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Beating England in England was a fine achievement, and even now I would rate India better than England, but beating a Bond-less NZ and WI away aren't great achievements. And remember, rating the current teams means rating them under the current captains, and under Dhoni India have yet to really prove themselves abroad except for NZ. A loss in SL will hurt them. No doubt India are a better away team than in the 90s, but not quite at SA's level.

Under Smith, SA have beaten Eng, WI, Australia, and Pakistan away, and drawn two series in India, perhaps the hardest place to tour. The last time Smith lost an away series was way back in 2005 against McWarne's Australia. It would be interesting to see how his side fairs in SL, but I think they would do better than India currently are.The point is that since his team has formed a settled nucleus of class players around 2007 (Steyn, Morkel, DeVilliers, Amla, Kallis, Boucher, Prince), and their form has peaked around the same period, his team has clearly been ahead of others.

I love how you keep harping about how Ind beat a Bond-less NZ side-how is it Ind's fault ?

Anyway,we'll do this your way.

SA drew a series in India earlier this year. Why don't you mention that they beat a side that had no Dravid and Laxman in the first test?We had joke players like Badrinath,Wriddhiman Saha and some other no-name in that test.Even in the second test we didn't have Dravid but still won by an innings despite losing the toss (you know what a diff that makes in the SC) and despite not having the services of Zaheer,Ind's best bowler,in the second innings.

Even the current team in SL is hardly full strength.No Gambhir,no Harbhajan,no Zaheer yet you don't mention all that?You just keep bleating about how there was no Bond in the NZ side India beat - as if teams that tour NZ now will have to face Bond anyway

Also love how you pass off Ind's series win in WI against the likes of Lara as something "not great" but include the current joke WI side for SA

And if we are only comparing India under Dhoni - then you cannot use their losses in SA,Aus and SL as he wasn't captain then.In fact,he didn't even play the 2008 series in SL.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

And let's not forget that India's middle order is set to retire soon, while SA have youth on their side.

Has no relevance in a discussion about how good the teams are currently.Few would argue that Ind are the best side once their big guns retire.

 

[subshakerz]

SA drew a series in India earlier this year. Why don't you mention that they beat a side that had no Dravid and Laxman in the first test?We had joke players like Badrinath,Wriddhiman Saha and some other no-name in that test.Even in the second test we didn't have Dravid but still won by an innings despite losing the toss (you know what a diff that makes in the SC) and despite not having the services of Zaheer,Ind's best bowler,in the second innings.

Fair enough, but SA drew the series in 2008 as well so this occasion is no fluke.

Even the current team in SL is hardly full strength.No Gambhir,no Harbhajan,no Zaheer yet you don't mention all that?You just keep bleating about how there was no Bond in the NZ side India beat - as if teams that tour NZ now will have to face Bond anyway

They had Harbi and Gambhir for the first test which they lost. Granted, it a weaker Indian team now but losing their first serious away challenge won't raise India's rating.

Also love how you pass off Ind's series win in WI against the likes of Lara as something "not great" but include the current joke WI side for SA

Never said SA beating WI was great either, was just listing their away victories.

And if we are only comparing India under Dhoni - then you cannot use their losses in SA,Aus and SL as he wasn't captain then.In fact,he didn't even play the 2008 series in SL.

Exactly, we don't have enough of a record to judge Dhoni's India as no.1. A string of home victories, a draw against SA, an away victory in NZ and a potential loss in SL is all we have to judge by. Not enough.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

No one said SA fluked it earlier this year.I have my reservations about only considering India under Dhoni - as long as the nucleus of the team stays the same I don't see why series not played under him shouldn't count.

You really cannot complain about Bond not being there and then include the current series where Mithun is opening the bowling for India!Like I said, Zaheer,Sree,Gambhir,Harby - that's 4/11.

You mentioned Aus,WI,England and Pakistan away in SA's list of away wins.Agreed it is the most impressive of all recent away records,but India beat Eng and WI(a stronger side than the current side by far) in their most recent away series as well.Under Dhoni or not doesn't matter to me as the core part of the team is still the same.So what SA have on India is series wins in Aus and Pak while India have New Zealand(Ind won in Pak 04 but that's way too long back).Now I don't see why SA should get extra points for losing at home to Aus and beating them away.If they had won both,or drawn one and won one,I'd agree but as it stands it's 1-1.SA drew with England at home and beat them away, India beat them both home and away -does that count in India's favour?I suppose what counts against India is that they drew against SA at home rather than beat them,which means the series in SA later this year will be their acid test.A series win or even a drawn series would add weight to the argument in favour of India.As it stands,I'll go with the ICC rankings.

 

[BoyBrumby]

I'm not saying we deserve to be number one at this point, but that the performances in recent times suggest to me we'd give anyone a game at home. I don't think we would win in India just yet although a draw wouldn't be out of the question, and I think we've a chance of retaining the Ashes.

As I also said, earlier, you can only beat what's put in front of you and we are doing that at the minute. We can't do any more than that.

Yeah, quite. None of the English are (I'd currently make us 4th, FWIW, behind SA, India and Oz in probably that order), but we unquestionably were competitive in South Africa, who possibly are the current #1s. So the suggestion we're not in the mix is daft.

 

[vcs]

I like the way SA prepare for series, they always seem to hit the ground running in the first Test, while India always seem to need a Test match to get warmed up in away series. You can't afford that sort of thing.

 

[Zinzan]

Yeah, no surprises for me, the poll is overwhelmingly in favor of SA being number 1 , daylight 2nd followed by England/India.

 

[subshakerz]

You mentioned Aus,WI,England and Pakistan away in SA's list of away wins.Agreed it is the most impressive of all recent away records,but India beat Eng and WI(a stronger side than the current side by far) in their most recent away series as well.Under Dhoni or not doesn't matter to me as the core part of the team is still the same.So what SA have on India is series wins in Aus and Pak while India have New Zealand(Ind won in Pak 04 but that's way too long back).Now I don't see why SA should get extra points for losing at home to Aus and beating them away.If they had won both,or drawn one and won one,I'd agree but as it stands it's 1-1.SA drew with England at home and beat them away, India beat them both home and away -does that count in India's favour?I suppose what counts against India is that they drew against SA at home rather than beat them,which means the series in SA later this year will be their acid test.A series win or even a drawn series would add weight to the argument in favour of India.As it stands,I'll go with the ICC rankings.

I think the difference is that I tend to place more importance on record abroad rather than home records, given that honestly India, SA, Australia, SL and to a lesser extent England are all strong at home. But they differ more in how they fair away. The away record separated the dominating WI and Australian teams of the past from their competitors.

And I think it matters whether Dhoni was captain or not. You wouldn't put India's past losses in SA, SL and Aus on his record, so why do you put India's past victories in England and WI? I repeat, under Dhoni India hasn't been tested properly enough outside home for them to claim no.1. India's no.1 ICC ranking is simply based on a series of home victories which India accomplished in the past before without being declared no.1, and a decent but unspectacular victory in NZ.

Under Smith, SA lose points for losing at home to the Aussies and sufficing with a draw at home against England, but that is more than outweighed by their impressive away record. Winning in Australia was HUGE, and I don't think England or Australia are capable of drawing consecutive series in India.

Bottomline is no team is perfect or far outstrips the others. Whereas India under Dhoni and England under Strauss have not been tested fully away from home yet, and Australia under Ponting have clearly fallen by the wayside, SA under Smith have a consistent but imperfect record that is better than the others. Credit to them.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I think the difference is that I tend to place more importance on record abroad rather than home records.

Like I said,I don't see why winning away and losing at home should get more points than winning at home and losing away.No one's comparing any side to the dominant WI/Aus sides.Those are ATG sides,none of the current sides are close.I doubt seriously if even a combined world current 11 could match those two.The discussion is on the best teams currently,and admittedly there is no clear winner.

And I think it matters whether Dhoni was captain or not. You wouldn't put India's past losses in SA, SL and Aus on his record .

Not at all.I did count the losses.This is what I said :

And if we are only comparing India under Dhoni - then you cannot use their losses in SA,Aus and SL as he wasn't captain then.In fact,he didn't even play the 2008 series in SL. .

India have won their last series in England,New Zealand,West Indies (not counting Bang).They lost 1-2 to SA,SL and Aus (none of them dead rubbers) - that's hardly what you'd call "winning at home only"

No one said SA fluked it earlier this year.I have my reservations about only considering India under Dhoni - as long as the nucleus of the team stays the same I don't see why series not played under him shouldn't count.

Now let's have a look at SA's most recent away series against others from the top 5,i.e Ind,Aus,SL and Eng.

SA in India - 1-1

SA in Aus 2-1

SA in England 2-1

SA in Sri Lanka 0-2

Right that is quite impressive.

Number of series won : 2
Number of series lost : 1


Number of tests won : 5
Number of tests lost : 5

India's most recent series in SA,Aus,Eng and SL.

Ind in Aus 1-2
Ind in Eng 1-0
Ind in SA 1-2
Ind in SL - 1-2

Number of series won : 1
Number of series lost : 3

Number of tests won : 4
Number of tests lost : 6


Now the home records.

SA's most recent home series against Ind,Aus,SL and Eng.

SA vs Ind 2-1
SA vs Aus 1-2
SA vs Eng 1-1
SA vs SL 2-0

Number of series won : 2
Number of series lost : 1

Number of tests won : 6
Number of tests lost : 4

India's most recent home series against SA,Aus,Eng and SL.

Ind vs SL 2-0
Ind vs SA 1-1
Ind vs Aus 2-0
Ind vs Eng 1-0

Number of series won : 3
Number of series lost : 0

Number of tests won : 6
Number of tests lost : 1

 

[Avada Kedavra]

India have a chance to turn the series loss in SL to a draw,which would further strenghten their case.Lets see if they can do it.

 

[mohammad16]

Indian bowling currently is the joke of the world. Noway can they be seriously considered the best test team in the world. If you cant beat Srilanka without Murali, you have serious problems.

 

[Sir Alex]

Indian bowling currently is the joke of the world. Noway can they be seriously considered the best test team in the world. If you cant beat Srilanka without Murali, you have serious problems.

What's the correlation?

 

[Avada Kedavra]

Yeah as opposed to beating Ind w/o Zaheer,Harbhajan,Gambhir and Sreesanth at home.

 

[subshakerz]

Not at all.I did count the losses.

I see no reason Dhoni should get credit for victories/losses under someone else's captaincy. Let him prove himself. Your method basically assumes that the captain has a nominal effect on the team.

Now let's have a look at SA's most recent away series against others from the top 5,i.e Ind,Aus,SL and Eng.

SA in India - 1-1

SA in Aus 2-1

SA in England 2-1

SA in Sri Lanka 0-2

Right that is quite impressive.

Number of series won : 2
Number of series lost : 1

Smith didn't lead SA in SL, and it was way back in 2006 anyways.

India's most recent series in SA,Aus,Eng and SL.

Ind in Aus 1-2
Ind in Eng 1-0
Ind in SA 1-2
Ind in SL - 1-2

Number of series won : 1
Number of series lost : 3

Number of tests won : 4
Number of tests lost : 6

Pretty superficial analysis. Losing 4-6 tests makes it sound better, but India lost 3/4 series away, which is pretty dire.

Now the home records.

SA's most recent home series against Ind,Aus,SL and Eng.

SA vs Ind 2-1
SA vs Aus 1-2
SA vs Eng 1-1
SA vs SL 2-0

Number of series won : 2
Number of series lost : 1

Number of tests won : 6
Number of tests lost : 4

India's most recent home series against SA,Aus,Eng and SL.

Ind vs SL 2-0
Ind vs SA 1-1
Ind vs Aus 2-0
Ind vs Eng 1-0

Number of series won : 3
Number of series lost : 0

Number of tests won : 6
Number of tests lost : 1

Yes, India have done better at home, but like I mentioned before, thats nothing new for India, and it's no reason to put them at top.

 

[Avada Kedavra]

I see no reason Dhoni should get credit for victories/losses under someone else's captaincy. Let him prove himself. Your method basically assumes that the captain has a nominal effect on the team.

We are talking about India,not Dhoni.I couldn't care less who the captain was.It's the composition of the team and results that matter.


Smith didn't lead SA in SL, and it was way back in 2006 anyways.

Do you know when India's last series in SA was?


Pretty superficial analysis. Losing 4-6 tests makes it sound better, but India lost 3/4 series away, which is pretty dire.

Which is why I also mentioned the number of series.I added the number of tests as well to show that they have been competitive everywhere.It isn't like they have been getting pummeled away

Yes, India have done better at home, but like I mentioned before, thats nothing new for India, and it's no reason to put them at top.

They have done much better at home. As for their away record,if India manage to hold on for a draw in SL,it would become 2/4 series lost - against Aus and SA,draw against SL,win against Eng.As opposed to SA's draw in India,loss in SL and wins in Aus/Eng.There's still time for that-let's wait and see.

Reply in bold.

 

[George.Hinton]

Yeah, no surprises for me, the poll is overwhelmingly in favor of SA being number 1 , daylight 2nd followed by England/India.

Not sure SA are that far in front of Aus, Eng and India tbh.

 

[Zinzan]

Not sure SA are that far in front of Aus, Eng and India tbh.

Correct, not by a large margin but enough for it to be clear for most