Best team since Waugh/ Ponting’s Australia?

[Shri]

That's before we get to the idea that this current 2019-2021 Indian side would have challenged peak WI in all conditions. That's just... yeah, no.

we put up a fight and even won once or twice against wi with just gavaskar and kapil supported by numpties

we can repeat that with rohit and bumrah supported by numpties

 

[Xix2565]

Basically I feel you are conflating two different eras. The era in which our 3-5 were firing on all cylinders and we were scoring 700 for fun at home did not have our pace attack firing on all cylinders or Ashwin being a crucial bowler away from home and we lost in England/SA.

Now Bumrah has become an elite operator, Siraj is an incredible prospect, Ashwin is making big contributions away from home and we have undoubtedly our best bowling attack ever. Rohit has also become world class. However, our middle order is averaging 25 with the bat.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too by picking batting from the first period and bowling from the second. Pick one.

We can do both though? Umesh/Shami/Ishant/Ashwin/Jadeja played through all of those years.

 

[Kilowatt]

In the Chennai test -
3 wickets fell on Day 1
5 wickets fell on Day 2
8 wickets fell on Day 3
15 wickets fell on Day 4
9 wickets fell in 40 overs of Day 5.

India began their innings 5 overs into Day 3. These were not flat conditions by any means.

 

[Spark]

In the Chennai test -
3 wickets fell on Day 1
5 wickets fell on Day 2
8 wickets fell on Day 3
15 wickets fell on Day 4
9 wickets fell in 40 overs of Day 5.

India began their innings 5 overs into Day 3. These were not flat conditions by any means.

If your definition of "flat" does not include conditions in which just 8 wickets fall in two days of cricket then the word is utterly meaningless.

 

[Test fan]

Why people's are judging teams based on how many player's are ATG in the team or how bad they are performing rather than team success. Fact is Virat team won more than Smith team ,this is what matters at the end . Virat indian test team is third greatest ever test side to play cricket .

 

[centurymaker]

Guess the bowling isn't actually as good as we thought then

Bowling is great but it is not the greatest ever, though it is still the most complete attack for all conditions.

Simply put, India batsmen (like batsmen from other nations) use to pad up their averages at home in flat conditions. This hasn't been happening recently because India has been producing low scoring pitches!! If India were to produce flat pitches this year at home, none of these middle order guys will average less than 35, guaranteed!

 

[Teja.]

We can do both though? Umesh/Shami/Ishant/Ashwin/Jadeja played through all of those years.

Umesh, Shami, Ashwin, Jadeja and Shami all averaged between 37-43 in Australia/England prior to the latest tours. So in order to have them as improved bowlers away from home, you will have to consider the latest tours but for that you have to also factor that our 3-5 averages 25 for the the same period.

 

[Spark]

Bowling is great but it is not the greatest ever, though it is still the most complete attack for all conditions.

Simply put, India batsmen (like batsmen from other nations) use to pad up their averages at home in flat conditions. This hasn't been happening recently because India has been producing low scoring pitches!! If India were to produce flat pitches this year at home, none of these middle order guys will average less than 35, guaranteed!

"Won't average less than 35" is not exactly a comforting benchmark to hit when placed against lineups which averaged 45-55 from 1 through 7.

 

[Spark]

Umesh, Shami, Ashwin, Jadeja and Shami all averaged between 37-43 in Australia/England prior to the latest tours. So in order to have them as improved bowlers away from home, you will have to consider the latest tours but for that you have to also factor that our 3-5 averages 25 for the the same period.

I'd regard the Indian team with Bumrah and Siraj in it as a fundamentally different side tbh. The way they play cricket away from home has almost nothing in common with how they played cricket away from home as recently as 2016. It's a completely different cricket team in mentality and gameplan.

 

[Kilowatt]

Basically I feel you are conflating two different eras. The era in which our 3-5 were firing on all cylinders and we were scoring 700 for fun at home did not have our current pace attack or Ashwin being a crucial bowler away from home and we lost in England/SA.

Now Bumrah has become an elite operator, Siraj is an incredible prospect, Ashwin is making big contributions away from home and we have undoubtedly our best bowling attack ever. Rohit has also become world class. However, our middle order is averaging 25 with the bat.

You cannot have your cake and eat it too by picking batting from the first period and bowling from the second. Pick one.

Umm... Indian bowling was fine before the batsman **** the bed.

 

[Teja.]

I'd regard the Indian team with Bumrah and Siraj in it as a fundamentally different side tbh. The way they play cricket away from home has almost nothing in common with how they played cricket away from home as recently as 2016.

Yes, I agree. In that period, even Ashwin and Jadeja have put in great shifts in Australia. However, you can't combine the batting of 2016 India with the bowling of 2021 India to rate the side.

 

[Teja.]

Umm... Indian bowling was fine before the batsman **** the bed.

View attachment 30305

I don't think I was ever arguing Ashwin, Jadeja, Shami and Yadav have always been great at home. The point is that the Bumrah+Siraj+Ashwin bowling machine we have right now away from home is also concurrent with 3-5 averaging 25.

 

[Xix2565]

Umesh, Shami, Ashwin, Jadeja and Shami all averaged between 37-43 in Australia/England prior to the latest tours. So in order to have them as improved bowlers away from home, you will have to consider the latest tours but for that you have to also factor that our 3-5 averages 25 for the the same period.

If you're going back to 2014-2015, Kohli only became captain first due to Dhoni being unavailable and full time after Dhoni retired. I'm not sure why we have to take past tours into account when Kohli wasn't captaining them most of the time?

 

[harsh.ag]

If somehow, the Indian middle order (with or without Pujara and Rahane) sorts itself out this year, then we will have the best of both worlds and then maybe we could say India under Kohli circa 2022 is the best side since Ponting's Australia.

 

[Kilowatt]

If your definition of "flat" does not include conditions in which just 8 wickets fall in two days of cricket then the word is utterly meaningless.

And if you think conditions where 23 wickets fell in two days of cricket (the actually relevant days) are flat conditions, Pune 2017 was a flat pitch.

 

[Spark]

And if you think conditions where 23 wickets fell in two days of cricket (the actually relevant days) are flat conditions Pune 2017 was a flat pitch.

Are you seriously claiming that a Test match where the first two innings totalled 900 runs was not played in batting friendly conditions? Hello? Did you watch that game? Were you going "wow, this is so difficult for batting" as Root and Stokes were scoring for fun? Posting "what bowling friendly conditions these are" as the English batting lineup, widely considered one of the worst to ever represent their country, put a 500+ score on in the first innings?

Yes, it got harder to bat as the Test match went on. That's what Test match pitches do.

 

[Xix2565]

Chennai 2021 was flat until Day 3, after which it disintegrated as shown by England collapsing heavily for 178 compared to 578. What point is this supposed to make that Adelaide 2003 can't about Waugh's Australia?

 

[centurymaker]

just checked record of Smith test team guess what they lost Thrice 2005/06, 2008/09, and 2013/14 to Australia at home . Kohli test team is miles Better than overhyped Smith team. Smith team never defeated England or Australia in a series at home, and lost test matches at home routinely but Kohli team is ruthless at home

Yes South Africa never managed to beat Australia as well as England at Home!
Kinda neutralises their success away.

 

[Spark]

Chennai 2021 was flat until Day 3, after which it disintegrated as shown by England collapsing heavily for 178 compared to 578. What point is this supposed to make that Adelaide 2003 can't about Waugh's Australia?

The point is that it was a chance for India's middle order to show that it could still do the business in flat conditions where a big first innings score was the key to winning the game, and that it's current poor record is mostly down to the difficulty of current Indian pitches in general. It did not, and what runs India did score were mostly down to the lower order.

 

[Teja.]

If you're going back to 2014-2015, Kohli only became captain first due to Dhoni being unavailable and full time after Dhoni retired. I'm not sure why we have to take past tours into account when Kohli wasn't captaining them most of the time?

Do you legitimately believe that our bowling attack being elite away from home as they are now has coincided with our 3-5 being in passable form? I don't. Therefore, I don't think they can be mixed and it's disingenuous to conflate ATG batsman Kohli and Siraj within the same XI because they have never existed as part of the same team.

Our 2018/19 side had our batsman in form and the beginnings of a strong away bowling attack but we are actually a better side now despite our batting sucking due to how far the bowling attack has come and are actually winning more away from home. This is our best side away from home despite our 3-5.