Best captains/could have been captains

[The Battlers Prince]

Basically I've been thinking about some of the guys who could have made great captains but for whatever reason never led their country. Some of the names I've thought of were Hedley Verity, Keith Miller and Shane Warne. For some potential leaders there have been other guys in their way, sometimes administrative but sometimes other great captains have been in the way.
So for me the best to have never led is Keith Miller
The best to have been a captain is Clive Lloyd

Any thoughts of who the best leaders were? Or who were jerks...

Sorry if this has been a thread before

 

[Hurricane]

Basically I've been thinking about some of the guys who could have made great captains but for whatever reason never led their country. Some of the names I've thought of were Hedley Verity, Keith Miller and Shane Warne. For some potential leaders there have been other guys in their way, sometimes administrative but sometimes other great captains have been in the way.
So for me the best to have never led is Keith Miller
The best to have been a captain is Clive Lloyd

Any thoughts of who the best leaders were? Or who were jerks...

Sorry if this has been a thread before

I have often wondered how Paddles would have gone as captain. New Zealand and Australia are the two countries that like to name batsman as captains almost as a rule (Vettori and spinners aside).

I think on the whole it was for the best. He would have been a hard taskmaster.

Greatbatch
Edgar

I won't say Richardson - I don't find the tactics he proposes as a commentator to be particularly great.
Ian Smith did get a go didn't he.
Scott Styris would have been underwhelming.
Grant Elliot's sound bites on the cricket company while captaining the Firebirds were cringeworthy.
Peter Fulton if he could've held down a spot in the team apparently was a very fine FC level captain.

Tom Latham would be good.

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I have often wondered how Paddles would have gone as captain. New Zealand and Australia are the two countries that like to name batsman as captains almost as a rule (Vettori and spinners aside).

I think on the whole it was for the best. He would have been a hard taskmaster.

Greatbatch
Edgar

I won't say Richardson - I don't find the tactics he proposes as a commentator to be particularly great.
Ian Smith did get a go didn't he.
Scott Styris would have been underwhelming.
Grant Elliot's sound bites on the cricket company while captaining the Firebirds were cringeworthy.
Peter Fulton if he could've held down a spot in the team apparently was a very fine FC level captain.

Tom Latham would be good.

In that era Paddles Vs Border would have been hard task master versus another hard task master. Brutal for the players,
I'd also add that Latham being captain is guaranteed from what I can see. KW will take a couple goes at captain and in between could be Latham's time

 

[Gnske]

Ashwin

Kohli is an amoeba compared to his intellectual intelligence.

 

[Hurricane]

In that era Paddles Vs Border would have been hard task master versus another hard task master. Brutal for the players,
I'd also add that Latham being captain is guaranteed from what I can see. KW will take a couple goes at captain and in between could be Latham's time

My comment on Latham is based, btw, on how intelligent a batsman he is. He seems self aware and seems to learn and grow. Getting a test match 40 while opening the batting is not at all easy. He will crack the code of how to score centuries he is too smart not too.

Interesting comment on Kane getting two kicks at the can. Could come true.

 

[Red]

Darren Lehmann would've been good. So too Katich I reckon. Guys with uncomplicated minds make the best captains. Mark Taylor was a fine example of that, Clive Lloyd too.

Be interesting to ask, leadership aside, who was the best tactician ever. Clarke gets big marks for that from the guys I've seen.

 

[Red]

And Miller is the best never to have captained. How Ian Johnstone got the gig is beyond me.

 

[Pratters]

I don't think Warne would be a great captain for Australia. He was too erratic a figure. Would have issues with players like Waugh say, and not be able to handle it well. Leading a county team or IPL team where people look up to you generally and leading a side like Australia is too different things.

 

[jimmy101]

Some of the English professional greats during the amateur era would have to be worth a mention. Guys like, Hobbs, Sutcliffe & Frank Woolley probably could have done much better job than their amateur contemporaries.

To a similar extent, I believe George Headley & Learie Constanine would have been great captains for WI had they been given proper full time leadership duties.

 

[mr_mister]

Darren Lehmann would've been good. So too Katich I reckon. Guys with uncomplicated minds make the best captains. Mark Taylor was a fine example of that, Clive Lloyd too.

Be interesting to ask, leadership aside, who was the best tactician ever. Clarke gets big marks for that from the guys I've seen.

Not sure I agree on the uncomplicated minds front

 

[The Battlers Prince]

Yeah Warne would have made some interesting decisions.
What makes a captain great? I like Lloyd Because even when the Windies were tested he still got them through. He was tactically very good and also could lead from the front when his side was a few down. Mentioning Clarkey is another good shout for recent captains.

Watching Langer as coach inWA I wonder how he would have gone as well.

 

[fredfertang]

I would have liked to have seen what Ian Botham would have made of the England captaincy if he'd got the job in the mid 80s rather than when he did - it was ridiculous to expect a bloke of 24/25 who was the teams best bowler by far, and pretty much its best batsman, to lead the team well at that age

 

[The Battlers Prince]

I would have liked to have seen what Ian Botham would have made of the England captaincy if he'd got the job in the mid 80s rather than when he did - it was ridiculous to expect a bloke of 24/25 who was the teams best bowler by far, and pretty much its best batsman, to lead the team well at that age

Indeed, however, what if he had better support? I think young captains are ok when things aren't all on them. You're right a couple years later might have been better for Beefy, but is it really his age that was the problem?

 

[wpdavid]

Bob Woolmer may have been a good England captain if he hadn't messed up his test career by joining WSC.

I'm basing that on his spell in charge of SA, which admittedly isn't the same job, but he seemed to have a pretty sharp cricketing mind.

 

[wpdavid]

I would have liked to have seen what Ian Botham would have made of the England captaincy if he'd got the job in the mid 80s rather than when he did - it was ridiculous to expect a bloke of 24/25 who was the teams best bowler by far, and pretty much its best batsman, to lead the team well at that age

And against WI, of course.

That being said, I wouldn't have put mid-1980s Beefy in charge of anything.

 

[Howe_zat]

Warne's commentary career puts him very much in the Botham mold of captains, and never captaining in a Test match has done wonders for his captaincy reputation

 

[Howe_zat]

Some of the English professional greats during the amateur era would have to be worth a mention. Guys like, Hobbs, Sutcliffe & Frank Woolley probably could have done much better job than their amateur contemporaries.

This was my first thought, but perhaps if you played for pay in an era where professionals didn't captain, you wouldn't take the time to learn those skills.

 

[Furball]

Warne's commentary career puts him very much in the Botham mold of captains, and never captaining in a Test match has done wonders for his captaincy reputation

Warne's analysis career (ie when he's doing Sky masterclasses instead of chatting **** in the C9/ESPNStar box) tells a different story.

IMO Warne was best suited to being a vice captain, someone with a sharp tactical mind like Warne should always be near the leadership but he was blatantly too much of a **** to be Australia captain. His triumph as captain of Rajasthan in the initial IPL is interesting, but I reckon someone like Warne is an ideal captain in a youngish team where he's the man and the person everyone should naturally look up to and respect. Probably wouldn't have worked if he'd wound up at a more "superstar" franchise like how Kolkata (IIRC?) were initially put together, and I don't think he would have quite worked in a peer group that included McGrath, Gilchrist and Ponting amongst others.

 

[fredfertang]

Indeed, however, what if he had better support? I think young captains are ok when things aren't all on them. You're right a couple years later might have been better for Beefy, but is it really his age that was the problem?

And against WI, of course.

That being said, I wouldn't have put mid-1980s Beefy in charge of anything.

With the benefit of listening to his commentary all these years I don't now think the older Botham would've made a particularly good captain, unless perhaps Mike Brearley and Brian Close were selectors - odd that the only two people who ever managed him successfully were such polar opposites

 

[AndrewB]

Some of the English professional greats during the amateur era would have to be worth a mention. Guys like, Hobbs, Sutcliffe & Frank Woolley probably could have done much better job than their amateur contemporaries.

People were suggesting in the press that Hobbs should be England captain in the mid-20s (that led to the "Pray God, no professional will ever captain England" comment from Lord Hawke); I think McKinstry in his biography of Hobbs reckoned he didn't want the job anyway.

Not sure about Woolley, who comes across to me in his quotes as a "things were better in my day" type; not sure how well he'd have gone down with younger players.

I don't know that lumping together all their "amateur contemporaries", as if they're all of a similar type, is a good idea, though - I don't think that Gilligan, Chapman, Jardine, Carr, Fender, Allen, say, were in any sense like-minded.