Baseball vs. Cricket

[adharcric]

Barry, Barry, Barry!!!

 

[Fusion]

Barry, Barry, Barry!!!

Saw that live on TV last night. What a cool moment. He has a knack for setting his milestone records in San Fran. Steroids or not, he's one of the greatest hitters ever. By the way, major props to the Washington Nationals, who challenged him throughout and didn't wuss out like so many other teams do.

 

[The Sean]

Saw that live on TV last night. What a cool moment. He has a knack for setting his milestone records in San Fran. Steroids or not, he's one of the greatest hitters ever. By the way, major props to the Washington Nationals, who challenged him throughout and didn't wuss out like so many other teams do.

I'm not a huge baseball fan, but I just can't take this record seriously. Most of the home run stats of the past decade will always have a big * next to them IMO.

 

[Fusion]

I'm not a huge baseball fan, but I just can't take this record seriously. Most of the home run stats of the past decade will always have a big * next to them IMO.

That opinion is shared by many baseball fans as well. This record, along with the single season home run records that McGwire and Bonds broke, will always be tainted in the eyes of many. I'm torn about it myself. I think the record itself is the most hollowed one in all American sports. Therefore, I want to honor it just for that reason. Plus, IMO, the tragedy of it all is that Bonds would've been considered one of the greatest players of all time even WITHOUT steroids. He didn't need to juice up, he was that good. I don't think an official * is required next to the record, even if Bonds is convicted of using steroids later on. Otherwise like you said, the entire past decade should have an * next to all records. In due time Alex Rodriguez should break this record. Although he's a big phony and often has empty numbers, he's never been suspected of using steroids. The controversy will end if and when he breaks the record.

 

[Fusion]

By the way, if anyone's interested, check out this article about the lucky fan who caught the home run ball:

This part is interesting:

Baseball memorabilia experts have pegged the ball's value at $400,000 to $500,000. That's well below the $3 million fetched by the ball Mark McGwire hit to break Roger Maris' single-season home run record in 1998, but still a hefty sum.

 

[The Sean]

That opinion is shared by many baseball fans as well. This record, along with the single season home run records that McGwire and Bonds broke, will always be tainted in the eyes of many. I'm torn about it myself. I think the record itself is the most hollowed one in all American sports. Therefore, I want to honor it just for that reason. Plus, IMO, the tragedy of it all is that Bonds would've been considered one of the greatest players of all time even WITHOUT steroids. He didn't need to juice up, he was that good. I don't think an official * is required next to the record, even if Bonds is convicted of using steroids later on. Otherwise like you said, the entire past decade should have an * next to all records. In due time Alex Rodriguez should break this record. Although he's a big phony and often has empty numbers, he's never been suspected of using steroids. The controversy will end if and when he breaks the record.

Mate, you've called it exactly right there. Bonds was already considered one of the all time greats before he went on the juice - even if he hadn't touched the stuff I think that we'd still be ranking him right now as one of the very greatest ever. I read a good article about this saying that Bonds got frustrated with seeing lesser players than him (like McGwire) start breaking records ahead of him because they were on the juice, so he wanted to get on it too.

 

[Sanz]

Pardon my ignorance, but how does Steroid help them hit more home runs ? I am not a Barry Bond fan(dont know enough about baseball to become a fan of anyone) but I won't believe that he took steroid until I hear it from Barry himself or until he is caught.

In general I am sick of baseball because everytime I try to follow the game, all I hear is Steroid steroid. I love watching the game in a ballpark though and the main reason for that is I dont get to hear stupid commentators talking about steroid all the time.

 

[roseboy64]

Bonds devalued what Aaron went through to break the record IMO.

 

[silentstriker]

Pardon my ignorance, but how does Steroid help them hit more home runs ? I am not a Barry Bond fan(dont know enough about baseball to become a fan of anyone) but I won't believe that he took steroid until I hear it from Barry himself or until he is caught.

He did admit it, but it was in a courtroom under oath and thus baseball can't use it. And it helps because a ball that would otherwise be caught safely gets pushed 30 feet more and becomes a home run. Steroids also recuperation from playing and injuries, etc.

 

[Fusion]

He did admit it, but it was in a courtroom under oath and thus baseball can't use it. And it helps because a ball that would otherwise be caught safely gets pushed 30 feet more and becomes a home run. Steroids also recuperation from playing and injuries, etc.

Exactly. I can take all the steroids in the world, but I still won't be hitting any home runs. However, a baseball player who already is a good athlete and has skills to hit a home run can benefit from steroids. A ball that would normally have been a deep fly ball out, would now go for a home run. And like SS mentioned, it also helps in recovering faster from injuries. Considering Bonds' age and the fact that he still plays at an elite level, you have to wonder how much help he got in that regard. Like I mentioned above, the saddest part is that Bonds didn't need to do all this. He was an awesome player before taking steroids and IMO would've been recognized as one of the greatest ever. He apparently got jealous of the big contracts that McGwire and Sosa were getting after being on the juice and decided to copy them. Due to his tremendous talent, I still will think fondly of Bonds. I would've ranked him as the 3rd greatest home run hitter all time (behind Ruth and Mays). However, the steroid controversy does taint my image of him.

 

[Lostman]

bonds, bonds, bonds, steroids, steroids im sick of hearing this crap for the last 3 years.
Can we please get back to the most important thing happening in baseball right now?.
Which is the yankees are only 5 games behind the blosuxs, we are in for another classic redsox choke
This has a chance of being as legendery as the 1978 choke, only way it could get any better is if a boston massacre version 3.0 was mixed into it.

 

[Sanz]

He did admit it, but it was in a courtroom under oath and thus baseball can't use it. And it helps because a ball that would otherwise be caught safely gets pushed 30 feet more and becomes a home run. Steroids also recuperation from playing and injuries, etc.

As far as I remember, I dont think he admitted that he took Steroids. Bonds is still hitting those home runs and without steroids, So I dont think I will believe that he was hitting them over the park because of 'roids except for may be one season where he hit 73 HRs.

 

[adharcric]

Steroids not only provide enhanced power and injury recovery but they can also help you hit better - just take a look at Barry's batting average soar in 2001 (.330, .370, .340, .360 - he's a career .300 hitter) at the age of 37. Either way, I will always look at him as a victim of the steroids era. Everyone knows that baseball has been full of steroids for quite some time now. Hell, even D-II baseball apparently had steroids based on something I heard on the radio. Even the media knows, but they just jump on the bandwagon and pretend like Barry's the only "cheater" in the game, simply because he's the one chasing the record. Really, I'm not sure anyone even cared about steroid usage in baseball until a few years ago.

The aftermath of yesterday's record-breaker was touching but it turns out Hank Aaron's appearance was staged by Selig and Bayer (the Giants owner) just to save face. Did anyone see Barry blow up in the face of a few reporters that tried to talk about controversy in the press conference? "No, it's not tainted, not tainted at all," he said later. Barry Bonds made a big mistake some years ago and that is a tragedy, but I will always admire him for his talent. Up there with the legends of the game IMO.

 

[pasag]

I don't get the recover from injury quicker argument tbh. Yeah it's perfectly acceptable that if your hitting is enhanced from the stuff than it should be banned, but the whole recovering quicker thing doesn't really wash with me. Big deal tbh.

 

[Sanz]

Steroids not only provide enhanced power and injury recovery but they can also help you hit better - just take a look at Barry's batting average soar in 2001 (.330, .370, .340, .360 - he's a career .300 hitter) at the age of 37.

Would you mind posting his batting avg. for his career season-wise. I dont know where and how to get them.

IMO he is still better than he was in Pittsburgh.

 

[roseboy64]

bonds, bonds, bonds, steroids, steroids im sick of hearing this crap for the last 3 years.
Can we please get back to the most important thing happening in baseball right now?.
Which is the yankees are only 5 games behind the blosuxs, we are in for another classic redsox choke
This has a chance of being as legendery as the 1978 choke, only way it could get any better is if a boston massacre version 3.0 was mixed into it.

Yankees fan.

 

[silentstriker]

From the game of Shadows:

The transformation that Barry Bonds achieved through the use of 
performance-enhancing drugs is reflected in his batting statistics. 
Bonds began using steroids before the start of the 1999 season, when 
he was 34 years old. His numbers, as compiled by baseball-reference.com, 
show that his performance improved dramatically at a time when otherwise 
he might have been approaching the end of his career.

Of the five best offensive seasons in Bonds' career, four came after 
he was 35 years old - and after 1999, the year he began using steroids.
The historic 2001 season, when he was 36 years old (his age as of 
Opening Day), was the best of all - .328 batting average, 73 home runs, 
an on-base percentage of .515. But 2002, when he was 37 (.370, 46 HR) 
and 2004, when he was 39, (.362, 45 HR) also were excellent seasons for
Bonds, and 2003, when he was 38, was not far off the mark.

In fact, of Bonds' five best seasons, only one came in what is usually 
considered a baseball player's prime. That was 1993, before steroids, 
when Bonds was 28 years old and playing his first season for the Giants.

Year  Age   AB    R   H   2B  3B  HR  RBI   BB  SO    BA   OBP   SLG
2001   36  476  129  156  32   2  73  137  177  93  .328  .515  .863
2002   37  403  117  149  31   2  46  110  198  47  .370  .582  .799
2004   39  373  129  135  27   3  45  101  232  41  .362  .609  .812
1993   28  539  129  181  38   4  46  123  126  79  .336  .458  .677  
2003   38  390  111  133  22   1  45   90  148  58  .341  .529  .749          

Bonds' home run production also increased after he began using steroids. 
In his 19-year career (through 2004), Bonds hit 45 or more home runs in 
six seasons. Five of those seasons were after 1999 - after age 35, and 
after he had begun using performance-enhancing drugs. 

Year       Age        HR
2001        36        73
2000        35        49
2002        37        46
1993        28        46
2004        39        45
2003        38        45

Another measure of Bonds' power surge is home run frequency - the number 
of at-bats it took him, on average, to hit each home run. Over the first 
13 years of his career - that is, before steroids - he hit a home run 
every 16.2 at-bats. His most productive year during that period was 1994,
when he hit a home run every 10.6 at-bats. (Bonds played in 112 of the 
Giants' 115 games in 1994, the season that ended in a lockout. He hit 37 
home runs in 391 at-bats.)

From 1999 through 2004 - after steroids - the frequency with which Bonds 
struck homers nearly doubled, to one every 8.5 at-bats. His best year was 
2001, when he hit a home run every 6.5 at-bats. 

YR       AB/HR
1986      25.8
1987      22.0
1988      22.4
1989      30.5
1990      15.7
1991      20.4
1992      13.9
1993      11.7
1994      10.6
1995      15.3
1996      12.3
1997      13.3
1998      14.9
1999      10.4
2000       9.8
2001       6.5
2002       8.8
2003       8.7
2004       8.3

Before steroids, Bonds was an outstanding player and a likely Hall 
of Famer, the numbers affirm. In more than 6,600 at-bats over 13 
seasons, he batted .290 and hit 411 homers with 1,216 RBIs. He made 
the All-Star team eight times and was selected the National League's 
Most Valuable Player in 1990, 1992 and 1993. Had he retired after the
1998 season, he would rank 40th on the all-time home run list, above 
Duke Snider. His 1,357 walks would rank 28th.

Using a mathematical average to roll those 13 seasons into a single year, 
we see that Bonds, before steroids, hit for average and power and was an 
excellent base runner. The composite Bonds year during that period looks 
like this: 

	 G   AB     R   H  2B  3B  HR  RBI   SB  CS   BB  SO   BA   OBP
86-98  146  509   105 147  31   5  32   93   34  10  104  81 .290  .411

But after age 35 - after steroids - Bonds improved his game in most 
categories. From 1999 to 2004, he had far better power and drove in and 
scored more runs. His batting average increased by an astonishing 38 
points, and his on-base percentage soared because of a big increase in 
his walk total, which already was high. 

At what should have been the end of his baseball career, Bonds became a 
significantly better hitter than earlier in his career, as a composite 
of those years shows.

         G   AB    R    H  2B  3B  HR  RBI   SB  CS   BB  SO   BA   OBP
99-04  136  413  118  136  27   2  49  105   10   2  158  63 .328  .517

The post-steroids Bonds also became one of the greatest hitters of all time. 
Lee Sinins, creator of the Sabermetric Baseball Encyclopedia, used 
statistician Bill James' "runs created" formula, a measure of total 
batting production, to determine the best offensive performances in 
baseball history. As Sinins ran the numbers, Bonds' 73-homer year in 
2001 was the second-best offensive season any player has ever had - 
second only to Babe Ruth's 1921 season, when the New York Yankees star hit 
.378 with 171 RBI. 

      Year  Age   AB    R    H  2B  3B  HR  RBI   BB  SO    BA   OBP   RC
RUTH  1921   26  540  177  204  44  16  59  171  145  81  .378  .512  243
BONDS 2001   36  476  129  156  32   2  73  137  177  93  .328  .515  228

Three of Bonds' post-steroids seasons were among the top 10 in baseball
history, according to Sinins' list. Only Ruth had more, with five top-10 
seasons.

#      Name     Year      Age       Tm       BA       HR      RBI       RC
1      RUTH     1921       26      NYY     .378       59      171      243
2     BONDS     2001       36      SFG     .328       73      137      228
3      RUTH     1923       28      NYY     .393       41      131      227
4      RUTH     1920       25      NYY     .376       54      137      216
5    GEHRIG     1927       24      NYY     .373       47      175      215
6      RUTH     1927       32      NYY     .356       60      164      211
6      FOXX     1932       24      PHA     .364       58      169      211
8      RUTH     1924       29      NYY     .378       46      121      209
9     BONDS     2002       37      SFG     .370       46      110      206
10    BONDS     2004       39      SFG     .362       45      101      204
10    GEHRIG    1936       33      NYY     .354       49      152      204
10   HORNSBY    1922       26      STL     .401       42      152      204

Sinins' study also underscores the fact that in baseball terms, 
Bonds was an old man when he emerged as one of the greats of the game.

Bonds was 36 when he had his 73-home run season, the first of three seasons 
that rank in the top 10; he was 39 in 2004, which Sinins puts as 10th best 
of all time, tied with Lou Gehrig's 1936 season for the Yankees and Rogers 
Hornsby's efforts for the 1922 Cardinals.

No player was older than 33 when he performed at this high level. (Gehrig was 
33 in 1936.) Ruth was 26 in 1921, which Sinins rates as the best season of all 
time. The average age of the other players on the top-10 seasons list - along 
with Ruth, Gehrig and Hornsby, there is Jimmie Foxx, the old-time Philadelphia 
Athletic - was 27.

Yet another measure of Bonds' late-in-life power surge: By the end of 2005, 
he had hit more home runs after age 35 than any of the game's great sluggers:

HR          35&UP  Total HR         %
BONDS         263       708        37
AARON         245       755        32
PALMEIRO      208       569        37
RUTH          198       714        28
JACKSON       153       563        27
MCCOVEY       137       521        26
MCGWIRE       126       583        22
MURRAY        125       504        25
SCHMIDT       123       548        22
MAYS          118       660        18
ROBINSON      111       586        19
BANKS         108       512        21
WILLIAMS      103       521        20
KILLEBREW      86       573        15
SOSA           49       588         8
OTT            48       511         9
MANTLE         40       536         7
MATTHEWS       19       512         4
FOXX            7       534         1

Sean Forman, proprietor of baseball-reference.com, used a different statistic 
to track Bonds' power surge after 1999. In a study done in 2004 for The 
Chronicle, he applied a measure of offensive performance called OPS, for 
on-base percentage plus slugging percentage, to compare Bonds to other great 
hitters.

Forman's conclusion: Starting in 2000, after Bonds had recovered from a 1999 
elbow injury, he put together the greatest five consecutive seasons of any 
hitter in baseball history. During that stretch, when he was age 35 to 39, 
Bonds batted .339, hit 258 homers and drove in 544 runs, with an OPS of 1.316. 
His performance was slightly better than what the study showed was the
 second-best five-year run of all time: Babe Ruth's first five years with the 
Yankees. From age 25 to 29, Ruth hit .370 with 235 homeruns, 659 runs batted in, 
and an OPS of 1.288. No other players in baseball history came close, the study 
found.

 

[Lostman]

Bonds has never tested positive for a steroid, since the MLB started testing(02 or 03? cant really remember) And from 98-02 everybody in the MLB was on the same garbage that he was on, including pitchers (who for an unknown reason most people dismiss as having abused steroids). So in essence he was on equal footing to all his contempories, and he was still by far the best slugger of that era.

Anyway here is nice comparion, bonds from the 80's to today.
]

and here is roger clemens from roughly the same time period

both of them have never tested positive for steroids, but both of them have been strongly linked to steroids. Yet one is a cheat and the other is the greatest pitcher of all time?
Im not saying that Bonds is better than both Ruth and Aaron. I think that Aaron was the best HR hitter followed by Ruth, but to simply knock Bonds down for being the best player in the steroid era is faulty when everybody was on steroids.

 

[Sanz]

That picture of Bonds doesn't prove anything. Take a look at Tendulkar's picture in 1987 and Tendulkar's picture in 2007. You will see a good bit of difference.

 

[biased indian]

i never like when they walk the best batter comes
the catcher just stand way off and the pitcher throws to him

they should stop that and penalies the aciton
the people come to watch the best in action