AB de Villiers vs Virat Kohli

[Pap Finn Keighl]

tbh why would you remove that part of his career? To average 30 as a teen in ODIs at that time was pretty gun and only adds to his legacy.

He must get extra points for being that awesome, whats happening is exactly opposite.. Compares him with other usual length careers and he suffers from these teen years stats. Strange.

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

"Mistake" haha.

Any one of those players who "retained their average" would have given anything to play for their country since they were 16.

Also, Sachin and Viv committed mistakes of playing in 80s and 90s tougher conditions.
Its not the fault of Dhoni, Kohli and Abdv.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Yeah. Sachin after he started opening in '94 onwards in NZ was a different beast. Even before that, he had a pretty good WC in '92 and played standout knocks against strong attacks like Pakistan and WI as a teenager. Averaging 30+ in those days was more than good enough.

Sachin overall:
452 innings | 18,426 runs | 44.83 Ave | 86.23 SR | 62 MoM

Sachin as 2nd opener:
293 innings | 13,685 runs | 50.31 Ave | 88.71 SR | 49 MoM

293 innings not exactly a small sample - he was a different beast in that position as you said. To average 50+ from opening position in ODIs, especially considering a number of those games would have been in the difficult mid/late-90s and early-00s is quite something.

Just checked it in fact...
Sachin as 2nd opener from 1994-2005 (dates are a bit arbitrary I suppose):
185 innings | 9,069 runs | 53.03 Ave | 90.28 SR | 38 MoM

But that's not too different from Kohli's record at the moment - he has played 200 innings and has a strike rate of 92.14 in a more batsman-friendly era. Kohli has a much higher average though (58) but he also starts one down (and is a gun chaser).

Average 'runs per innings' ignoring Not Outs - Sachin 1994-2005 vs Kohli...
Sachin: 49.02
Kohli: 47.94

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Sachin overall:
452 innings | 18,426 runs | 44.83 Ave | 86.23 SR | 62 MoM

Sachin as 2nd opener:
293 innings | 13,685 runs | 50.31 Ave | 88.71 SR | 49 MoM

293 innings not exactly a small sample - he was a different beast in that position as you said. To average 50+ from opening position in ODIs, especially considering a number of those games would have been in the difficult mid/late-90s and early-00s is quite something.

Just checked it in fact...
Sachin as 2nd opener from 1994-2005 (dates are a bit arbitrary I suppose):
185 innings | 9,069 runs | 53.03 Ave | 90.28 SR | 38 MoM

But that's not too different from Kohli's record at the moment - he has played 200 innings and has a strike rate of 92.14 in a more batsman-friendly era. Kohli has a much higher average though (58) but he also starts one down (and is a gun chaser).

Average 'runs per innings' ignoring Not Outs - Sachin 1994-2005 vs Kohli...
Sachin: 49.02
Kohli: 47.94

Thanks.

 

[Victor Ian]

How does this explain ODI chases being disproportionately difficult until very recently, and Test 4th innings chases still being insanely difficult (even when the pitch is holding up)? After all, they all know what they're doing.

There is a reason the conventional wisdom was "runs on the board > chasing, even if it isn't a huge score" until a few years back, because it was true.

That would be 'nerve' being mastered more recently. I'm not getting drawn into this any further. It was just a throw away troll, while I was eating some lunch

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

So, basically

Sachin 50 at 89
Vs
Viv 47 at 90

Remains the only 2 contenders for the top spot.

 

[Victor Ian]

Sachin overall:
452 innings | 18,426 runs | 44.83 Ave | 86.23 SR | 62 MoM

Sachin as 2nd opener:
293 innings | 13,685 runs | 50.31 Ave | 88.71 SR | 49 MoM

This is quite interesting. I find it hard to believe that being No2 is that much different from being number 1. So....

1) Is there a reason that not facing the ball is easier that is supported by evidence across all number 1 and number 2 batsmen?

2) Or did Tendulkar moving to number 2 just happen to coincide with when he was a much better player?

edit: it seems all 1st position batsmen average 33.17 compared to 32.59 for all 2nd position batsmen. As this gap is very small and favours the 1st position (if it is significant) I'm guessing the answer is number 2.

edit 2: maybe I misunderstood what you meant by 2nd opener. I was thinking it implied the rest of the time he was the number 1 opener. Seems not.

 

[harsh.ag]

This is quite interesting. I find it hard to believe that being No2 is that much different from being number 1. So....

Is there a reason that not facing the ball is easier that is supported by evidence across all number 1 and number 2 batsmen?

Or did Tendulkar moving to number 2 just happen to coincide with when he was a much better player?

He never opened at number 1. He played down the order until 1994 and then for a while again in the mid noughties.

He famously didn't like to be the 1st opener. Ganguly tells a story of when he forced Sachin to do so by nonchalantly grabbing the spot at the bowler's end.

Edit: Turns out he was the 1st opener 47 times between 96-04 Averaged 36 at the SR of 82.

 

[vcs]

He never opened at number 1. He played down the order until 1994 and then for a while again in the mid noughties.

He famously didn't like to be the 1st opener. Ganguly tells a story of when he forced Sachin to do so by nonchalantly grabbing the spot at the bowler's end.

Edit: Turns out he was the 1st opener 47 times between 96-04 Averaged 36 at the SR of 82.

Except for the 2003 WC match against Pakistan, famously.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Haha, excluding the runs as 1st opener because he didn't like it?

I'd prefer not to come in at 2/10, but I don't get a choice in it - maybe I can exclude that from my stats?

 

[harsh.ag]

Haha, excluding the runs as 1st opener because he didn't like it?

I'd prefer not to come in at 2/10, but I don't get a choice in it - maybe I can exclude that from my stats?

Yeah, he should have included the 1st opener stats. Turns out 340 innings, average 48.2, SR 88..

 

[vic_orthdox]

Yeah, he should have included the 1st opener stats. Turns out 340 innings, average 48.2, SR 88..

Not really wanting to get involved in arguments about Tendulkar vs everyone else - not even sure how it wound up moving from AB & Kohli to Tendulkar and Richards - but that reasoning was interesting shall we say.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Haha, excluding the runs as 1st opener because he didn't like it?

I'd prefer not to come in at 2/10, but I don't get a choice in it - maybe I can exclude that from my stats?

No, because he just didn't play in that particular position very often (<10% of his overall innings if I'm correct), and he clearly played a substantial amount of matches at #2 (nearly 300 innings, which is longer than both ABs and Kohli's career).

For a fair comparison, here's Kohli's stats at #3:
148 innings | 7,495 runs | 61.43 Ave | 93.29 SR | 24 MoM

Runs per innings: 50.6

His average increases by 3 (not a huge amount) and his SR by just over 1. It's not a huge change for Kohli.

It's clearly a HUGE change for Sachin. I don't buy the 'his move up to #2 just coincided with when he became a top player' argument necessarily, because although he was young, he had shown plenty of fantastic innings in tests prior to that but struggled in ODIs to an extent. For some reason though, #2 suited him down to a tee, as his stats show.

Until 1994 (before moving up to #2), he was averaging 31.09.

Taking all positions except #2, in 159 innings total his average is only 34.10 (29 runs per innings). There's a very marked difference.

I'm not 100% sure what AB's split of positions is (anyone care to enlighten?), so just doing an overall runs per innings: 43.93

Edit: seems to be 4 (just under half the matches) but no real change from his actual statistics

Anything but 1 and 2 seems to bring about a +5 average and a +1 SR.

He's a real beast at 5 - average of 77.96 in 42 innings at a SR of nearly 109.

It's just interesting, if anything.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Arguing that there's a genuine difference in positions between 1 & 2 is ridiculous. It's superstition, not a difference in batting position.

 

[harsh.ag]

Arguing that there's a genuine difference in positions between 1 & 2 is ridiculous. It's superstition, not a difference in batting position.

Tbf if it's in the mind of the player, then it's as real a thing as anything else in sports.

 

[vic_orthdox]

Tbf if it's in the mind of the player, then it's as real a thing as anything else in sports.

Would you like to remove Gilchrist's record in games where Flintoff played? Cullinan's record when Warne was playing in the same match?

Statistically speaking, how is it in any way relevant to make a comparison with another player to only record his stats at #2? Because it's his favourite position? Even though he is opening the batting and most likely facing half of the first two overs of the game?

 

[Pap Finn Keighl]

Yeah, he should have included the 1st opener stats. Turns out 340 innings, average 48.2, SR 88..

48 @ 88 vs 47 @ 90

 

[srbhkshk]

fwiw, Kohli's peak rating has now gone beyond ABs peak rating.

 

[OverratedSanity]

The peak rating stuff is horse**** anyway. We don't even know what formula they use to calculate them.

 

[harsh.ag]

Would you like to remove Gilchrist's record in games where Flintoff played? Cullinan's record when Warne was playing in the same match?

Statistically speaking, how is it in any way relevant to make a comparison with another player to only record his stats at #2? Because it's his favourite position? Even though he is opening the batting and most likely facing half of the first two overs of the game?

I'm not arguing for removing anything. As I said earlier, he should have included the 1st opener innings.

But this I disagree with.

Arguing that there's a genuine difference in positions between 1 & 2 is ridiculous. It's superstition, not a difference in batting position.

There is a difference if he thinks there's a difference. Just like Cullinan psyched himself out vs Warne as we have observed.