Martin Crowe or Andy Flower (in tests)

[mr_mister]

Two batsmen who at the time of their retirement could easily lay claim to being their nation's best ever test batsman

Who was better?

 

[Athlai]

Good thread. By law, I have to vote Crowe but its a head scratcher for sure.

Crowe definitely played against better teams and in often tougher conditions, but that probably just about makes up the difference in average to make it a pretty fair comparison.

 

[TheJediBrah]

also both had a less talented brother they played with

Probably Flower. Hard to see Zimbabwe every producing anyone better than him.

 

[CricAddict]

Both played pace and spin equally well.

While NZ as well was arguably weaker at that time, Andy Flower played for a much weaker team and had to carry the team on his shoulders every time, against good bowling attacks and facing a huge deficit. Also, what TJB said. So, Andy Flower.

 

[CodeOfWisden]

Flower was better, Crowe was supremely gifted and should have ended his career along with the likes of Sachin and Lara but he ended up along with the likes of Mark Waugh and Damien Martyn.

 

[Gob]

Both played pace and spin equally well.

While NZ as well was arguably weaker at that time, Andy Flower played for a much weaker team and had to carry the team on his shoulders every time, against good bowling attacks and facing a huge deficit. Also, what TJB said. So, Andy Flower.

NZ were arguably the second best team in Crow's time

 

[Zinzan]

A classic example where stats mislead.

Crowe was a much better test batsman. The best Test batsman in the world for the 10 year period between 1985-1995

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting

 

[Aritro]

I'm somewhat embarrassed that I'd never even heard of Vengsarkar until about two weeks ago. Bloke appears to have been an actual gun, not just a pretty good 80s cricketer.

 

[mr_mister]

Shoaib Mohammad is someone who's discussed even less than Vengsarkar here and he seems quite decent too.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Vengsarkar had a tremendous peak.

 

[Flem274*]

Crowe stood out far more in his era, as Zinzan shows, so gotta give it to him. Flower was very interchangeable with other batsmen during his time.

 

[akilana]

A classic example where stats mislead.

Crowe was a much better test batsman. The best Test batsman in the world for the 10 year period between 1985-1995

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting


View attachment 28653

Ya it’s a classic example where stats mislead. Andy Flower was the better batsman.

 

[Immenso]

Shoaib Mohammad is someone who's discussed even less than Vengsarkar here and he seems quite decent too.

Coz if you watched him, you'd want to cry.

Says an NZ fan who watched the 88/89 series, and was glad no TV coverage came out of Pakistan in 1990.

Edit. Although, a statsguru search tells me his slow strike rate of 39ish wasn't that outrageous and was similar to his NZ contemporaries Bryan Young and Andrew Jones.

 

[_00_deathscar]

Andy Flower has had Covid-19
Has Martin Crowe?

Andy wins.

 

[Magrat Garlick]

Andy Flower has had Covid-19
Has Martin Crowe?

Andy wins.

RIP deathscar and thread

 

[Lillian Thomson]

Crowe was the first overseas cricketer on Tour in England that I can recall who was younger than me at the time (1983 tour). It's mind boggling to think he's now been dead for over 5 years.

 

[OverratedSanity]

Ya it’s a classic example where stats mislead. Andy Flower was the better batsman.

Curious to know how it's misleading. Its a 10 year stretch of crowes career where he scored as many runs as flower did in total, more hundreds, at a significantly better average in an era which is generally considered more difficult for batsmen. Its a pretty solid case in Crowe' s favour tbh.

 

[Himannv]

A classic example where stats mislead.

Crowe was a much better test batsman. The best Test batsman in the world for the 10 year period between 1985-1995

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/e...5;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting


View attachment 28653

Weren't you the one who chased him off the forum when he signed up here?

 

[honestbharani]

I think Andy Flower was amazing and is under rated but Crowe was rated as the best batsman he has bowled to by Wasim Akram and was so good for a long time in a tougher era for batsmen. Really hard to call tbh.

Flower had the better overall career by a smidgen but I reckon Crowe was the better pure bat.

 

[Bolo.]

Curious to know how it's misleading. Its a 10 year stretch of crowes career where he scored as many runs as flower did in total, more hundreds, at a significantly better average in an era which is generally considered more difficult for batsmen. Its a pretty solid case in Crowe' s favour tbh.

Not sure it should be. Better spinners in flowers era, and comparable quicks. Last couple of years of Flower's career the bowling weakened, but I reckon the 90s were a bit tougher than the 80s, and with Flower playing the majority of his career in the 90s, it works out very close.

Flower may still have faced weaker bowlers though due to playing for Zim... not sure.

Don't agree with excluding the rest of Crowes career. You can (arguably) do it for someone like Viv who was still an asset, but Crowe was a huge liability for a number of years, and this should count against him.