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Thread: What's a politics question you've always wanted to ask Cribb but haven't [...]?

  1. #31
    Cricket, Lovely Cricket Pratters's Avatar
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    I am not against people going from one nation to another. It has to be processed properly so that the dynamics of the places they go to is not disturbed. Have you heard about the South East Asian Financial crisis Cribbage? They opened their markets and all their money went out with a few hours. Freeing an economy has to be done in stages. In the same way, freeing of countries has to be done in stages. Right now, there is so much inequality, it will take at least 100 years for things to be as free as you and I would want to see it, if ever. Europe is doing it to an extent and it is great to see. I wouldn't want Europe and Africa to open their borders right now though, say.

  2. #32
    Global Moderator harsh.ag's Avatar
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    Don't know why, but I'm going to give this a shot.

    Free borders doesn't have to be a utopian concept. There can be sensible policy making - such as you can move to Country A from Country B if (and this mostly applies to unskilled labour as skilled labour has a much higher payoff):

    1) You agree to pay a certain fees (either one time or recurring) (and this is other than the taxes you will be paying in Country A)
    2) You will return if you don't get a job within _____ days/months
    3) You will not be eligible for Social Welfare policies until ____ years

    and other rules which make sense on a country-by-country basis to make both sides better off, and prevent mass immigration. From what I have seen, immigrants would much rather be legal than illegal even at great costs.

    For Pratters: If all countries and all cities are open to such policies, then Kolkata will hopefully and probably not be overridden by Bangladeshis since the Bangladeshis will have better choices. Even if it is, you could just move to Prague.
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  3. #33
    Norwood's on Fire GIMH's Avatar
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    Oi Cribb my question about healthcare was serious. Answer it

  4. #34
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GIMH View Post
    Oi Cribb my question about healthcare was serious. Answer it
    Yeah I'll answer that later/tomorrow. I've had beers now and it's not something I can answer in one sentence by being a condescending arsehole like I could with Pratters anti-immigration shtick.
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  5. #35
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    If lky read some of cribb's thoughts he'd have passed away a lot earlier imo

  6. #36
    Dan
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pratters View Post
    For millions of years we had followed this system of nations which has lead to vast inequalities in regions. So if we just disallow it instantly, people will throng to the places they deem will give them more opportunities. This will affect the dynamics of the region which is doing well. Just take the case of Calcutta and Bangladesh. Illegal immigrants just add to the burden of the current tax payers and countries already exhausted by resources like say India.
    Umm, what? Modern nation-states are a pretty recent construct; I mean, you can trace the existence of sovereign states back to the Treaty of Westphalia, but before that the idea of a 'country' was a pretty nebulous concept at best. I mean, control of territory was literally a case of "so how much land can you defend? Ok, that's your border for now".

    And even that didn't engender an actual world system of states immediately. Think Africa during the 1800s -- old white men from European powers dividing up Africa by drawing arbitrary lines across a continent, often splitting ethnically-homogenous nations across different states. Not exactly a stable system. It was only after World War 2, when the norm against conquest became a thing as a result of the formation of the UN, that we actually had a coherent "system of nations". So you can't really invoke an appeal to tradition there, when the tradition isn't really that old.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pratters View Post
    I know, but at the cost of opportunities for people who have worked for long time to get them. You build your house on your ideals for ages, then just let any one in, why exactly? Come to Calcutta one day and let me know if you like what you see on the roads buddy.
    I was in Mumbai recently and I didn't like what I saw on the side of the road. It was very confronting to see that kind of poverty. But that kind of poverty isn't solved by arbitrarily banning poor people who aren't from Mumbai from being in Mumbai. It won't deconstruct Dharavi and give Mumbai's poorest citizens jobs with salaries described in terms of crores. If anything, it only worsens poverty -- especially rural poverty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pratters View Post
    I am not against people going from one nation to another. It has to be processed properly so that the dynamics of the places they go to is not disturbed. Have you heard about the South East Asian Financial crisis Cribbage? They opened their markets and all their money went out with a few hours. Freeing an economy has to be done in stages. In the same way, freeing of countries has to be done in stages. Right now, there is so much inequality, it will take at least 100 years for things to be as free as you and I would want to see it, if ever. Europe is doing it to an extent and it is great to see. I wouldn't want Europe and Africa to open their borders right now though, say.
    You really don't understand why that happened, do you?
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Yeah I'll answer that later/tomorrow. I've had beers now and it's not something I can answer in one sentence by being a condescending arsehole like I could with Pratters anti-immigration shtick.
    Throwing stuff was also a legitimate question, ****.
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  8. #38
    Cricket, Lovely Cricket Pratters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    Umm, what? Modern nation-states are a pretty recent construct; I mean, you can trace the existence of sovereign states back to the Treaty of Westphalia, but before that the idea of a 'country' was a pretty nebulous concept at best. I mean, control of territory was literally a case of "so how much land can you defend? Ok, that's your border for now".
    Earlier, people couldn't travel as much, so there were kingdoms instead of countries, some small, others bigger.

    I was in Mumbai recently and I didn't like what I saw on the side of the road. It was very confronting to see that kind of poverty. But that kind of poverty isn't solved by arbitrarily banning poor people who aren't from Mumbai from being in Mumbai. It won't deconstruct Dharavi and give Mumbai's poorest citizens jobs with salaries described in terms of crores. If anything, it only worsens poverty -- especially rural poverty.
    Adding more poor to the problem which already exists makes it only worse. The example of Mumbai and rural India isn't a good one. There rural poverty worsens. In the case of immigration the poor have more competition in their already miserable lifestyle.

    You really don't understand why that happened, do you?
    Freeing of economies has to be done in stages, wouldn't you agree? It's widely accepted as the the forward in econmics. In the same way freeing of countries has to be done in stages.
    Last edited by Pratters; 24-04-2015 at 02:24 AM.

  9. #39
    Hall of Fame Member Pothas's Avatar
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    Would you actually vote for UKIP of you lived in the UK? Desoite their attitude towards immigration and new found love for a national health service.

  10. #40
    Cricket, Lovely Cricket Pratters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pothas View Post
    Would you actually vote for UKIP of you lived in the UK? Desoite their attitude towards immigration and new found love for a national health service.
    Do not know about the party. As I said earlier, I am not anti immigration. I am not an immigration nazi. It has to be done in stages. There has to be a vision for it. You keep freeing things step by step.

  11. #41
    Hall of Fame Member duffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harsh.ag View Post

    For Pratters: If all countries and all cities are open to such policies, then Kolkata will hopefully and probably not be overridden by Bangladeshis since the Bangladeshis will have better choices. Even if it is, you could just move to Prague.
    /end thread
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    True, a Duffer "heh" is like 50 likes.

  12. #42
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    Can we have a separate "people respond to Pratters' political ramblings" thread? Our derail-prevention thread is being derailed.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I disagree with those deontological libertarians in that I think natural rights are unprovable at best, but my beef with utilitarianism is that it's built on the foundations of objective value. One man's good is another man's disastrous, so the greatest good can't be measured or even approximated. As such I believe all value is subjective, and that the best way to establish some sort of subjective value society is to enable people the freedom to value things as they wish. I apply a deontological view of subjective value to a utilitarianish justification of state force in limited circumstances and come out with the greatest freedom for the greatest number. This makes me more of a small-government classical liberal than a real libertarian in many ways, but the libertarian movement isn't big enough for them to call me a heretic and kick me out. I think the only thing that could waiver me from this position would be exposure to new ideas rather than new experiences, but I've been wrong before.
    I don't think this argument adds up. Utility is a subjective concept, but so is Freedom. You're advocating maximising Freedom because it's a good proxy for Utility, but that's just multiplying the level of subjectivity by introducing another layer. Why not address Utility directly?

  14. #44
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Spikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    I don't really think your rights should be determined by where your mother was when you were born, but that's just me.
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    Prince EWS: Was America right to drop nukes on Japan

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