• Welcome to the Cricket Web forums, one of the biggest forums in the world dedicated to cricket.

    You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Cricket Web community today!

    If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.

A great result against the 'Win Toss, win the Test match" theory

Zinzan

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Although it is undoubtedly an advantage to bat first on most Indian wickets & to a lesser extent to bowl first on greenish NZ wickets, isn't it great these latest two test matches have proved if you play well enough you can still defy losing the toss.

Incidentally, I think some NZ wickets in recent times have deceived a little in appearing more menacing than they really are, although wickets like the McCullum triple hundred Test against India were undoubtedly bowl-first wickets.

Anyway, well done to both India & NZ for still going onto victories after losing what were supposedly crucial tosses.
 
Burgey

Burgey

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Probably more a great result for the "The better team usually wins test matches" theory imo.
 
Zinzan

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
Burgey said:
Probably more a great result for the "The better team usually wins test matches" theory imo.
Click to expand...
Well quite. I phased it differently because there's been lots of talk about the crucial nature of the toss recently, especially in the SC.
 
the big bambino

the big bambino

International Captain
I don't mean to be picky but its the home team that won both games. It seems to me the away team needs to win the toss to be even competitive, but most likely end up losing even with the advantage of winning the toss. Superficially the problem is the conditions favouring the home side and accusations of doctoring rise from that perception. Really its touring sides failing to select players suitable for or adjust their play to exploit foreign conditions. There are a number of reasons for that one being the crowded playing schedule that truncates a touring team's preparation to adjust to different conditions.
 
Zinzan

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
the big bambino said:
I don't mean to be picky but its the home team that won both games. It seems to me the away team needs to win the toss to be even competitive, but most likely end up losing even with the advantage of winning the toss. .
Click to expand...
Valid point, & yes, in the case of India vs. England, as a few of us have pointed out, it appears England currently need to win the toss just to make it competitive in this series.
 
Zinzan

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
What happened centurymaker? I was just about to reply to that post & she disappeared on me :p
 
centurymaker

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
The two tests that England won in the 2012 series in India, they won them batting 2nd. (India had batted first and failed in the 1st innings both times or rather England had bowled well.)

So batting first sometimes isn't as straightforward as its made out to be because it puts significant pressure on the batsmen as they are strongly expected to score BIG.. 450.. 500.. 550 and its not always that easy and it only takes a couple of deliveries.. a couple of dismissals (or soft-dismissals) and you are gone.

So if you underperform, you are behind the game then & there. And then having to bat in the 3rd innings after having conceded a lead is just incredibly hard & teams tend to just collapse under the pressure of clawing themselves back...Its happened numerous times. Australia in India is also a good example. And if there happens to be help for seamers in the first session, you could easily lose a few wickets, and that would end up costing you the match too..

So batting first isn't as advantageous as it is made out to be in SC/Indian conditions.
Stats also back this up. It's just an exaggerated perception.
Whether you bat first or bowl, you just have to make it count and get ahead in the game because it's not easy to play catch up on day 4 etc..
 
centurymaker

centurymaker

Cricketer Of The Year
Zinzan said:
What happened centurymaker? I was just about to reply to that post & she disappeared on me :p
Click to expand...
Wanted to edit something but it deleted the entire post lol.
Luckily though managed to press the back button to copy the text, before creating a new post.

Edit-
Batting first, however, definitely provides some advantage! But you have to make it count or it could backfire quite easily too.
 
Zinzan

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
centurymaker said:
Wanted to edit something but it deleted the entire post lol.
Luckily though managed to press the back button to copy the text, before creating a new post.

Edit-
Batting first, however, definitely provides some advantage! But you have to make it count or it could backfire quite easily too.
Click to expand...
Haha that's cool. Anyway all I was going to say is it's this particular Kohli-skippered side and their execution on the batting first template that sets them apart for me than other sides like the 2012 one , even if it was still obviously an advantage to win the toss then.
 
honestbharani

honestbharani

Whatever it takes!!!
Yeah, its almost as if good teams take advantage of winning a toss a lot better than a not so good team.. Who would have thought? :p
 
indiaholic

indiaholic

International Captain
England are the first side to win a toss against Kohli. We have literally nothing to go on to decide whether the toss is important to this side.
 
Zinzan

Zinzan

Request Your Custom Title Now!
indiaholic said:
England are the first side to win a toss against Kohli. We have literally nothing to go on to decide whether the toss is important to this side.
Click to expand...
Well what we do know, is they're pretty close to unbeatable when they do win it at home ;) & we now know they're pretty damn good even if they don't.

Again I refer to this current side, not ones from 2-3 years ago.
 
vcs

vcs

Request Your Custom Title Now!
centurymaker said:
The two tests that England won in the 2012 series in India, they won them batting 2nd. (India had batted first and failed in the 1st innings both times or rather England had bowled well.)

So batting first sometimes isn't as straightforward as its made out to be because it puts significant pressure on the batsmen as they are strongly expected to score BIG.. 450.. 500.. 550 and its not always that easy and it only takes a couple of deliveries.. a couple of dismissals (or soft-dismissals) and you are gone.

So if you underperform, you are behind the game then & there. And then having to bat in the 3rd innings after having conceded a lead is just incredibly hard & teams tend to just collapse under the pressure of clawing themselves back...Its happened numerous times. Australia in India is also a good example. And if there happens to be help for seamers in the first session, you could easily lose a few wickets, and that would end up costing you the match too..

So batting first isn't as advantageous as it is made out to be in SC/Indian conditions.
Stats also back this up. It's just an exaggerated perception.
Whether you bat first or bowl, you just have to make it count and get ahead in the game because it's not easy to play catch up on day 4 etc..
Click to expand...
Yeah, playing catchup in Test matches is incredibly hard in unfamiliar conditions. Almost never happens.
 
Victor Ian

Victor Ian

International Coach
I don't buy the toss making a huge difference. I agree that the problem is foreign conditions and that most touring teams of today waste all chances of acclimatising by not arriving early and playing many touring matches. Stop being 'overworked' wusses - go there early and play a few games on the foreign pitches to get used to it!

(completely unrelated, but there's a free like to whoever can tell me where to change my settings to stop red lines appearing under all my s's suggesting z's instead - where do I make my browser spell check in English English?)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Top