Underrated players

Why does Neil Harvey so rarely get a mention when the ATGs are discussed?

All his teammates talked of him in reverential terms and by all accounts he was a magnificent fielder. Doubtless the statsmongers can't get beyond his average being a mere 48, but he played a great deal on some bowlers' wickets, against some great bowling attacks and with playing conditions that often didn't favour him.

For me he's the most underrated of them all, but who else joins him in an Underrated XI?

Brian Statham and Bill Johnston to take the new ball.

Andy Flower only seems to get a mention when talking coaches or someone wants to be edgy and rebellious in a wicketkeeper ATG yarn, despite him being an average gloveman and an awesome batsman. Easily in the top tier of batsmen and did it for what was often a team up against the wall.

Lance Gibbs for a spin berth

WG Grace is correctly rated by 50% of fans and underrated and written off by the other 50%. He polarizes opinions.

Amongst Kiwis

Dale Hadlee probably
John Bracewell
Trevor Franklin to a degree

Australians
Peter Taylor
Simon O'Donnell
Bruce Reid
David Hookes

English
Emburey
Randall
The Older Ian Botham

West Indies
Gomes
Dujon
Gibbs

India
Azza
Zaheer
Kapil Dev outside of India (got compared to Hadlee, Botham, Khan)

Pakistan
Miandad maybe does he get the props he deserves

Sri Lanka
Aravinda
Ravi Ratnayake

South Africa
Clive Rice?
The rest of their players seem to be pumped to the max - e.g. Kallis

Flem274* said:

Brian Statham and Bill Johnston to take the new ball.

Andy Flower only seems to get a mention when talking coaches or someone wants to be edgy and rebellious in a wicketkeeper ATG yarn, despite him being an average gloveman and an awesome batsman. Easily in the top tier of batsmen and did it for what was often a team up against the wall.

Click to expand...

second most clear cut number 1 for a country after Bradman IMO

Ken Barrington rarely gets a mention, and he even has the stats to go with it. He does share the record for being dropped for slow scoring along with Sir Geoffrey. If a middle order batsman could bat as long as he did today they'd get a 10 year contract.

fredfertang said:

Why does Neil Harvey so rarely get a mention when the ATGs are discussed?

All his teammates talked of him in reverential terms and by all accounts he was a magnificent fielder. Doubtless the statsmongers can't get beyond his average being a mere 48, but he played a great deal on some bowlers' wickets, against some great bowling attacks and with playing conditions that often didn't favour him.

For me he's the most underrated of them all, but who else joins him in an Underrated XI?

Click to expand...

Every time I read something about Harvey I agree with your sentiments here.

Stories of him just taking apart great spinners on really ****ty tracks when no one else could get bat on ball, he must've been such a gun. Limited footage I've seen of him shows him to be very easy to watch as well. And as you say, a truly great fielder.

Clive Lloyd. Always remembered as the leader of the side, but he was such a gun batsman too. And a great catcher.

And Alan Davidson. Nuff said.

Hurricane said:

South Africa
Clive Rice?
The rest of their players seem to be pumped to the max - e.g. Kallis

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This does not seem at all true at all to me. Sure Kallis by the end of his career was no longer underrated but I still think Steyn and Smith are a little undervalued, certainly in England at any rate.

I think Smith's problem on CW was that Richard rated him

fredfertang said:

Why does Neil Harvey so rarely get a mention when the ATGs are discussed?

All his teammates talked of him in reverential terms and by all accounts he was a magnificent fielder. Doubtless the statsmongers can't get beyond his average being a mere 48, but he played a great deal on some bowlers' wickets, against some great bowling attacks and with playing conditions that often didn't favour him.

For me he's the most underrated of them all, but who else joins him in an Underrated XI?

Click to expand...

Harvey is one of my favourite players, but if I'm ridiculous and try to find fault then I could see why someone might be underwhelmed by an average of 33.80 in England;

England Away
Tests = 17
Average = 33.80
100s = 3


Harvey's stats when batting against the premier fast bowlers of his day also tell a story;

V Frank Tyson
Tests = 8
Average = 37.41
100s = 1


V Fred Trueman
Tests = 15
Average = 35.65
100s = 2


V Neil Adcock
Tests = 4
Average = 21.83
100s = 0


V Wes Hall
Tests = 4
Average = 17.87
100s = 0


This means that only 3 of his 21 Test centuries were made against an attack that featured a properly fast bowler. Also, none of the above averages are greater than 30 something.

Curiously enough, if you take Neil Adcock out of the South African attack such that Harvey is batting against second string quicks and spinners then his average rises exponentially in comparison;


V South Africa minus Adcock
Tests = 10
Average = 106.71
100s = 8


His record against India was also excellent;

V India
Tests = 10
Average = 59.61
100s = 4


So it appears at first glance that Harvey boosted his average by batting against Indian spinners and poor Hugh Tayfield whom he belted over the course of 14 Tests. However, it seems that Harvey was less than happy against good fast bowlers. But then again, who is ?!

The biggest hole in Harvey's record was his dreadful series in 1956 - I suspect his retort to that would be that he did the best he could given the raging bunsens that were served up for Laker and Lock - would be a whinging crim if he did make that complaint of course (though almost certainly a justifiably whinging crim)

it is also said he was demotivated for a while as he didn't get the captaincy and remained so until Richie got the job when, because he was such a mate of Richie's, he found his mojo again - not sure though if that was when Johnson got the job, or when Craig did, which just goes to underline the fact that, Murali apart, he must be the most interesting cricketer never to have had a proper biography written about him

If my memory serves me correct, Harvey was overlooked for the captaincy for Craig for the tour of South Africa in 1957/58.

Anil Kumble due to his contemporaries both in the India side (not being Tendulkar) and in spin bowlers (not being Warne or Muralitharan).

Doesn't help his case that essentially all of his great bowling performances were on home pitches and he has a fairly modest average against the stronger test nations.

​Stuart Broad:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/51871-would-stuart-broad-make-india-s-strongest-test-xi.html

On a serious note, I'm going to stick my neck out and say Rahul Dravid. I think a lot is made of an exaggerated end of career decline (he was poor around 2008/09 but fine apart from that) and he should be an absolute lock for a team of the decade for 2000-2009, yet a lot of people will select Tendulkar ahead of him.

Stuart MacGill. Probably remembered as "that guy who wasn't quite as good as Warne." IIRC he got to 200 Test wickets faster than any other spinner in the history of the game. Should definitely be in the top 10 of all time discussion, quite possibly even top 5. But he wasn't as good as Warne, so we kind of forget about him.

Furball said:

​Stuart Broad:

http://www.cricketweb.net/forum/cricket-chat/51871-would-stuart-broad-make-india-s-strongest-test-xi.html

On a serious note, I'm going to stick my neck out and say Rahul Dravid. I think a lot is made of an exaggerated end of career decline (he was poor around 2008/09 but fine apart from that) and he should be an absolute lock for a team of the decade for 2000-2009, yet a lot of people will select Tendulkar ahead of him.

Stuart MacGill. Probably remembered as "that guy who wasn't quite as good as Warne." IIRC he got to 200 Test wickets faster than any other spinner in the history of the game. Should definitely be in the top 10 of all time discussion, quite possibly even top 5. But he wasn't as good as Warne, so we kind of forget about him.

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The 2000s were a good time to be a batsman.. Ponting, Hayden, Dravid, Kallis, Jaywardene, Sangakarra, Tendulkar, Sehwag, Chanderpaul, Lara, Yusuf and Younis all averaged over 50. But yeah Dravid was better than Tendulkar during this time.

In my day people rated neil very highly.

On MacGill, I always had the feeling that his career benefitted from playing with Warne. Whenever he played as a second spinner it meant the wicket was going to be more suited to spin bowlers and batsmen would aim to take risks against him rather than Warne which helped him get them out.

[Harvey was overlooked for the captaincy for Craig for the tour of South Africa in 1957/58.]

Maybe because being a **** isn't something Neil just stumbled upon after retiring.