'Keepers - How much can you compromise keeping for batting?

Richard said:

No, no, was selecting those who I think should have the wicketkeeping role in their Test team now.

Yes, I think Gilchrist should have retired from Tests with Buchanan, Langer, McGrath and Warne. He hasn't really been that good for the last 4 years. Haddin, to me, would be the better bet to open 2007\08.

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Other than period between the Ashes to the South African didn't see anything wrong with Gilly batting at all. He is definately past his peak at the moment but i reckon he still can offer another solid year in tests, although i reckon he should have retired from ODI's now.

sideshowtim said:

World Cup final? That was pretty much Gilchrist all the way. Can't get much of a bigger occasion than that either.

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How many Tests, I've always (fairly clearly) been talking about Tests only here.

pasag said:

GIlchrist's value is way beyond his batting and wicketkeeping though, which neither worry me in the slightest atm. It's the leadership and attitude he brings to the team and feild and imo, it's so, so vital. Now more than ever in a time of transition we need him out there, at least just for the next 12 months.

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I always think the "leadership in transition times" aspect is overrated TBH; as I say, I think that as much of a clean-break (if you've got the players to come in, which Australia, unlike some, undoubtedly have) as possible is best.

Aside from that, are there not enough leadership-quality types in the side with Ponting, Hussey, etc.?

sideshowtim said:

The statistics on Gilly's batting in recent times, I feel, aren't a true representation of him. For the last few years, Australia's top order has been more dominant than ever. This leads to Gilchrist coming in with plenty of runs on the board (in general), and meaning he is pretty much ordererd to tonk it from ball one.

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He'd done that many times in the preceding 4 years too, though, and averaged 59 doing it. Australia's top-order has been dominant since Gilchrist came into the side, full-stop. Where he was once able to make a superlative job out of batting behind them, he hasn't been more recently.

aussie said:

Other than period between the Ashes to the South African didn't see anything wrong with Gilly batting at all. He is definately past his peak at the moment but i reckon he still can offer another solid year in tests, although i reckon he should have retired from ODI's now.

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I know you didn't, but you often don't see things wrong where they are, especially where Australian players are concerned. IMO Gilchrist has not been that much of a batsman since 2003\04, and Haddin deserves his chance while he's still at an age to have a decent Test career.

Richard said:

I always think the "leadership in transition times" aspect is overrated TBH; as I say, I think that as much of a clean-break (if you've got the players to come in, which Australia, unlike some, undoubtedly have) as possible is best.

Aside from that, are there not enough leadership-quality types in the side with Ponting, Hussey, etc.?

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Ponting is a poor captain according to the geniuses around here though.

And I've always disagreed with "the geniuses" who say he's a poor captain. He's not Mark Taylor, no, but few are. Ponting's certainly more than adaquete as a captain.

Richard said:

And I've always disagreed with "the geniuses" who say he's a poor captain. He's not Mark Taylor, no, but few are. Ponting's certainly more than adaquete as a captain.

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prior drops another......

Interesting post to quote from there. But yeah, everyone seems to have hit the nail on the head - he should never have gone for that, and looked to be trying to make-up for the previous day's drop.

Richard said:

Interesting post to quote from there. .

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yh....its just a habit....more often than not, i quote a post b4 i post myself.....

Richard said:

I always think the "leadership in transition times" aspect is overrated TBH; as I say, I think that as much of a clean-break (if you've got the players to come in, which Australia, unlike some, undoubtedly have) as possible is best.

Aside from that, are there not enough leadership-quality types in the side with Ponting, Hussey, etc.?

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As I said, what Gilchrist brings to the team (above his actual trade), imo, is special and can't be quantified here and is something you might only realise living in Australia and being mildly obsessed with the team. I think we just don't need the gap him leaving will bring, at the moment if possible and if it could be pushed off for another season than that'd be ideal. And anyways on batting alone I'd rather Gilchrist there 100 times out of 100 above Haddin, full stop.

Point taken about Aussieness on the aura, but don't you think you're living on past glories if you'd currently prefer Haddin to Gilchrist purely on batting skill?

Richard said:

Point taken about Aussieness on the aura, but don't you think you're living on past glories if you'd currently prefer Haddin to Gilchrist purely on batting skill?

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Nah, especially not when he's still hitting 57 ball hundreds. Anyways back on topic, if Prior wasn't there, England without Flintoff would be batting to six. And with England's tail, that's a scary thought. So you (I) can obviously see both sides as to why he should and shouldn't be there at least till Flintoff comes back and returns to form (if he ever does) with the bat.

Thing is, no-one's suggesting (or at least, I haven't heard anyone do so) that a wicketkeeper who can't bat at all gets picked instead of Prior. Pothas or Foster would almost certainly be the next cabs off the rank.

And 57-ball hundreds aren't all there is to batting, y'know.

Richard said:

Thing is, no-one's suggesting (or at least, I haven't heard anyone do so) that a wicketkeeper who can't bat at all gets picked instead of Prior. Pothas or Foster would almost certainly be the next cabs off the rank.

And 57-ball hundreds aren't all there is to batting, y'know.

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It's more an answer to a theoretical question though, what if the wk you replaced him with was awesome with the gloves but horrible with the bat? Then England would be batting to 6 and would be screwed. Obv, it's more a hypothetical than anything.

Yeah, and hence if anyone was seriously considering it I'd be strongly tempted to shoot them.

Having a wicketkeeper who's a liability with the bat is just not possible any more, even with a Flintoff in the side (who IMO should be seven at the highest). However, having a wicketkeeper who's a liability with the gloves is also a stupid idea, possibly even more stupid.

To date, though, I don't think we can really call Prior such a thing.

Richard said:

Australia - Haddin
England - ?
India - Karthik
New Zealand - McCullum
Pakistan - ?
South Africa - Boucher
Sri Lanka - Silva
West Indies - Baugh

This is in Tests only.

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Well then no way this would be the case, Baugh is total garbage @ international level. Ramdin better than him in every area.

Richard said:

I know you didn't, but you often don't see things wrong where they are, especially where Australian players are concerned. IMO Gilchrist has not been that much of a batsman since 2003\04, and Haddin deserves his chance while he's still at an age to have a decent Test career.

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Dawg, if you want 2 say this nigga is biased then just say it, don't sugar coat it.

Anyway i believe i argued this point with you before & have no worries doing it again. You say Gilchrist has not been much of a test batsman since this 2003/04 which would begin from the Indian tour of Australia that yeat? thus suggesting that Gilly's streak did not begin from the 2005 Ashes but began in Australia tour to SRI in 2004?.

As i said the last time given that i have not missed an Australian test match since Gilly made his test debut other than 3 test vs PAK in 2002 due to unavailabilty on Skysports Extra, thats not true. Yea he didn't score heavily vs the Indian in that 20003/04 series but based on my knowledge of his dismissals in that series it were more due to bad shots rather than him being out of form or any specific bowler having the wood on him a la Freddie in 05.

In SRI, he played pretty well for a bloke who many agree isn't that great vs spin. That shot filled 144 was one of the best counter-attacking innings you r likely to ever see.

Home vs SRI wasn't out of form, remember scoring a crips 80odd on that Darwin pitch that both teams later complained about.

In India, another solid performance from a bloke who isn't that great againts spin enhanced by the fact that he was giving captaincy responsibilites on which was at the time one of the biggest overseas tours for Australia.

Home that aussie summer vs NZ/PAK was very his brilliant, then over in NZ well he just crucified him.

The lean run began in the 2005 Ashes..

Richard said:

Australia - Haddin
England - ?
India - Karthik
New Zealand - McCullum
Pakistan - ?
South Africa - Boucher
Sri Lanka - Silva
West Indies - Baugh

This is in Tests only.

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Would you say having Karthik in the team at the expense of Dhoni - who would be replaced by an all out batsmen would be preferable?

Opening batsman and a keeper - not all that common in Tests and obvious reason for it too.

Obviously, this will flow off into a tangent of who is better than Dhoni and what not, but I have a feeling that you might be content with the Indian 7 at the present time.

It's the old debate isn't it? D Pringle in the Telegraph says it's been going on since Parks v Murray in the 60s - sorry to dissapoint you Derek but John Woodcock says its been going on since Ames v Duckworth in the 20s. The difference now is that non batting 'keepers are history - if we drop Prior you can bet it will be for Foster or Ambrose or Pothas and they can bat too. Someone in a letter on Skytext suggests we pick Strauss as WK because of his slip fielding - great. The last thing we need is to search for another opener - have we learnt nothing from Alec Stewart being moved up and down the order.? As for India some thoughts - if it wan't for Dhoni this series would be 1-1 just now. And what happened to young Patel who played on their last tour here? And I wouldn't have Kartik as 'keeper. A 'keeper opener doesn't work and with India having a half decent opening partnership in this series why break it up by putting him down the order?