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Thread: The importance of World Cup wins?

  1. #1
    Cricket Web Owner James's Avatar
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    The importance of World Cup wins?

    Arguably most people would say the All Blacks were the best side through the 90s and 00s, but they don't have any World Cup titles to show for their dominance during this period.

    How important is winning the World Cup to being remembered as one of the great sides?

    As years go by, will people remember how good some of the All Blacks teams were, or will the focus be drawn more towards World Cup wins which show Australia, South Africa and England ahead?

  2. #2
    Hall of Fame Member Howe_zat's Avatar
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    I think the best side not winning is memorable in itself in World Cups. All I hear about the '95 World Cup is how absurdly good the All Blacks were supposed to be, and that just adds to the story. It's the same in football - people remember how good the Dutch were in the early 1970s, and how they didn't win.
    "Your averages, captain, coaches and players can probably survive incompetence over a relatively short series, so if youíre going to be rubbish, make sure itís against Pakistan, Sri Lanka, New Zealand or someone."

  3. #3
    Cricketer Of The Year ripper868's Avatar
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    World Cups>all other trophies/tours/tournaments combined
    Parmi

    Avatar now by choice. 5-0 in the Ashes and all.

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    Global Moderator Somerset's Avatar
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    It goes without question that the lack of World Cup victories are a blight on New Zealand's otherwise excellent record over the last 20 years, and theres no doubt that the tournament's of vital importance to test how teams play under pressure, usually without a home crowd as support, and against other sides that can rise to the occasion (of which the French are a perfect example). In saying that, even if we don't win this year's tournament, I'd much rather take our domination over the Six Nations and Tri Nations sides for 90% of the matches between RWCs than the 10% of rugby matches which make up the World Cup.

    I can see the perspective of those that consider the RWC to be all encompassing as to the who the best sides in the world is. However, I tend to argue that one loss in a particular tournament shouldn't define how good a team is, or even how well they play under pressure. Even the greatest sides lose, and from a NZ perspective its just unfortunate that we've timed those loses to coincide with World Cup knockout matches over the last 20 years. Our record, especially since the last World Cup, is tremendous and I'd much rather take a longer period of success against sides all over the world and use that to base the ability of the All Blacks than a tournament once every four years.


  5. #5
    Cricketer Of The Year ripper868's Avatar
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    3.5 years of mediocrity and a World Cup win>sustained period of dominance and a loss in the Semi's of World Cup.

    IMO

  6. #6
    Global Moderator Somerset's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripper868 View Post
    3.5 years of mediocrity and a World Cup win>sustained period of dominance and a loss in the Semi's of World Cup.

    IMO
    To be fair, I guess most of the teams that win World Cups haven't really been mediocre pre-tournament (England 2003 were favourites, South Africa had a good run-in to the 2007 tournament). In saying that, how does being consistently poor for 90% of the time and turning up well for a tournament for a month and a half constitute a better overall performance than a team with an outstanding record between World Cups (NZs win/loss sits at about 80% since 2007) and a one-off loss in the tournament? The funny thing is, if New Zealand do happen to lose this time, I think a lot of other New Zealanders would actually agree with your viewpoint; but its one I don't really subscribe to.

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    Hall of Fame Member TT Boy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripper868 View Post
    World Cups>all other trophies/tours/tournaments combined

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    International 12th Man Quaggas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Somerset View Post
    To be fair, I guess most of the teams that win World Cups haven't really been mediocre pre-tournament (England 2003 were favourites, South Africa had a good run-in to the 2007 tournament). In saying that, how does being consistently poor for 90% of the time and turning up well for a tournament for a month and a half constitute a better overall performance than a team with an outstanding record between World Cups (NZs win/loss sits at about 80% since 2007) and a one-off loss in the tournament? The funny thing is, if New Zealand do happen to lose this time, I think a lot of other New Zealanders would actually agree with your viewpoint; but its one I don't really subscribe to.
    But NZ were by far the tournament favorites.

    Tough one: Ama Bokke, or Stokke Bokke?

  9. #9
    Englishman BoyBrumby's Avatar
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    A theory I've been working on is that, because NZ know only very few teams can beat them (realistically Wallabies, Boks, England and Les Bleus), they operate in clinical autopilot a lot of the time and aren't given serious workouts until they play one of those four teams.

    When they find themselves in a game the weight of expectation weighs heavy and they get a little chokey. CBA to look it up, but I'm guessing the ABs won their group games in 2007 by an average of 50+ points per test and hadn't had a proper hit-out until the French in the quarters & we all know how that ended up. The French meanwhile had lost to Argentina and had to put an always-dangerous Mick to bed.

    The other potential winners know then that other teams can and have upset them (Samoa beating the Wobblies and Scotland the Bok in the past 12 months) they become more tournament-hardened and raise their games for the ABs, the once and forever favourites.

    I'd guess only twice (91 & 03) the ABs haven't gone in as favs.

    A sliver of light for New Zealand tho: between 1970 & 1994 Brazil managed to convince themselves they were never once the best association football team in the world. How many years since NZ won Bill?
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    State Vice-Captain Retox's Avatar
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    Regardless of the sport (football,cricket,rugby,etc,etc) winning the world cup is the benchmark of how good the team is.


    3.5 years of mediocrity and a World Cup win>sustained period of dominance and a loss in the Semi's of World Cup.

    IMO
    Anyone who doesn't think this is true supports a team that won the world cup in 1987 and is trying to make up for how much of a nation of chokers we are
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  11. #11
    International 12th Man Quaggas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Retox View Post
    Regardless of the sport (football,cricket,rugby,etc,etc) winning the world cup is the benchmark of how good the team is.




    Anyone who doesn't think this is true supports a team that won the world cup in 1987 and is trying to make up for how much of a nation of chokers we are
    You still have the best rugby team in the world, and have had (practically always) since 87 (that's 34 years ffs), WC or no.

  12. #12
    State Vice-Captain Retox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quaggas View Post
    You still have the best rugby team in the world, and have had (practically always) since 87 (that's 34 years ffs), WC or no.
    You can't be the best if you don't win the major comps



    (Not saying we have to win each one)

  13. #13
    State Vice-Captain Retox's Avatar
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    I guess my point is a few years ago:

    Liverpool had more league titles then Man Utd - Didn't make Liverpool the best team in England the best team is the team who wins more of the major titles/comps not the team that last won in 1989Ė90. NZ is not the best in the world for winning something in 1987 I mean our current only major trophy is the bledisloe cup

  14. #14
    International Coach morgieb's Avatar
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    They'd still go down as greats, shame they're the South Africa of rugby union
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    International Vice-Captain centurymaker's Avatar
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    if we dont win, i'll stop watching rugby

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