Imran Khan vs Virat Kohli

[subshakerz]

This intent talk is a bit useless though considering how all the intent in the world can't help you if your resources and players aren't good enough.

Yeah but how did Stokes take the same batch of losers under Root and get them to win 6 out of 7 home games?

 

[Xix2565]

Yeah but how did Stokes take the same batch of losers under Root and get them to win 6 out 7 home games?

The playing conditions and teams were pretty different, let's be real here.

 

[subshakerz]

The playing conditions and teams were pretty different, let's be real here.

So Root would have had the same results if he was captain and not Stokes?

 

[Fuller Pilch]

Yeah but how did Stokes take the same batch of losers under Root and get them to win 6 out of 7 home games?

BMac and dodgy Dukes

 

[Jayro]

This intent talk is a bit useless though considering how all the intent in the world can't help you if your resources and players aren't good enough.

Spot on, you make me non playing captain of a side with the calibre of 80s - windies Or early 2000s Aussie and i will have them win most of the matches one day Or tests.

 

[Xix2565]

So Root would have had the same results if he was captain and not Stokes?

Root with an arguably similar/worse side in 2018 won 4-1 over India. He could've easily had a similar showing this year with his key players performing and taking advantage of the conditions.

 

[subshakerz]

Root with an arguably similar/worse side in 2018 won 4-1 over India. He could've easily had a similar showing this year with his key players performing and taking advantage of the conditions.

Yeah except last year he was losing to India.

 

[subshakerz]

Spot on, you make me non playing captain of a side with the calibre of 80s - windies Or early 2000s Aussie and i will have them win most of the matches one day Or tests.

Sides like Aussie 2000s and 80s WI are exceptions in that they are so good the difference of a captain is minimal. But even that minimal difference can mean a captain deciding not to follow-on in India in 2001 and not deciding to bowl first in England in 2005, both captaincy decisions of which cost series.

Any team of the same players will likely achieve around 70-80 percent of the same results regardless of captain IMO. But that remaining percentage can be the difference between a side being bottom tier versus mid-tier or mid-tier versus top-tier.

 

[Xix2565]

Yeah except last year he was losing to India.

And? Did you miss the point where I said player personnel and conditions matter more than what a captain does? Doesn't just apply to England though, they're not playing Tests by themselves. And same goes here for the debate between Imran and Kohli, very hard to say how much their captaincies really changed team fortunes beyond just looking at match records and seeing who won more.

 

[subshakerz]

And? Did you miss the point where I said player personnel and conditions matter more than what a captain does? Doesn't just apply to England though, they're not playing Tests by themselves. And same goes here for the debate between Imran and Kohli, very hard to say how much their captaincies really changed team fortunes beyond just looking at match records and seeing who won more.

I think in Imrans case it is pretty clear having him as captain was transformative, because he used that role to influence selection and bring back Qadir and force Waqar and Inzi in the side. He also took the tough calls of dropping Zaheer and Majid, in Pakistan cricket oldies tend to stick around long. The Pakistan team would have looked very different if he wasn't in charge.

 

[subshakerz]

As for this question it's really close Imran edges him on away record but Kohli home domination is insane. Imran overall slightly ahead imo

In a couple of decades, nobody will remember Kohli's home wins, but they will remember him for being the first Indian cap to win in Australia.

I think when Kohli looks back, he will kick himself for not having more under his belt though. He should have had at least one ICC trophy and 1 series win in NZ/SA/Eng given the quality team he had.

 

[trundler]

People will absolutely remember the spotless home record when they start losing at home. Why wouldn't they? It's remarkable.

 

[Xix2565]

I think in Imrans case it is pretty clear having him as captain was transformative, because he used that role to influence selection and bring back Qadir and force Waqar and Inzi in the side. He also took the tough calls of dropping Zaheer and Majid, in Pakistan cricket oldies tend to stick around long. The Pakistan team would have looked very different if he wasn't in charge.

Sure, but that doesn't suddenly mean those talents couldn't have made it through other means. Credit is due, but even then these things are vastly different now where everything is professional and so the captain's influence isn't necessarily so grand and vast.

In a couple of decades, nobody will remember Kohli's home wins, but they will remember him for being the first Indian cap to win in Australia.

We remember dominant home records all the ****ing time dude, nonsensical take this. Especially when they do get broken (like first X team to win a game/series in Y). I understand your love for away performance but this is really stretching it.

 

[subshakerz]

People will absolutely remember the spotless home record when they start losing at home. Why wouldn't they? It's remarkable.

India will likely remain strong at home. They have only lost three series in the past three decades so it's not like Kohli was the one who started that, he just amped it up.

 

[subshakerz]

Sure, but that doesn't suddenly mean those talents couldn't have made it through other means. Credit is due, but even then these things are vastly different now where everything is professional and so the captain's influence isn't necessarily so grand and vast.

Yeah now is different but we judge each captain for his time. So Imran should get credit as a teambuilder as you mentioned.

We remember dominant home records all the ****ing time dude, nonsensical take this. Especially when they do get broken (like first X team to win a game/series in Y). I understand your love for away performance but this is really stretching it.

My point was that most in the cricket fraternity are rarely going to remember those individual victories at home unless its something like 2001 against Australia when you beat a vastly better team. I think people remembering Kohli's home record depends a lot on how the team does after him. If they continue to be strong but less dominant and only lose a series a decade, I dont think it will matter as much to his legacy.

 

[Xix2565]

Is

Yeah now is different but we judge each captain for his time. So Imran should get credit as a teambuilder as you mentioned.


My point was that most in the cricket fraternity are rarely going to remember those individual victories at home unless its something like 2001 against Australia when you beat a vastly better team. I think people remembering Kohli's home record depends a lot on how the team does after him. If they continue to be strong but less dominant and only lose a series a decade, I dont think it will matter as much to his legacy.

Sure, but then that's merely a matter of the times they played in. So it's not much in a subjective guessing game anyway.

Define most in the cricket frat without sounding ridiculous. And then why you feel you're more representative of this than anyone else.

 

[Coronis]

India will likely remain strong at home. They have only lost three series in the past three decades so it's not like Kohli was the one who started that, he just amped it up.

I blame biased umpiring and ball tampering.

 

[honestbharani]

I blame biased umpiring and ball tampering.

You are right. Imran sucks.

 

[Kirkut]

Umesh Yadav used to bowl within himself under Dhoni, but with Kohli he was a much different bowler which was evident in the 2017 BG Trophy.

Kohli clearly emphasized pace even if the bowler got hammered for runs, IK had a similar mindset of "bowl as fast as you can and don't worry about accuracy"

 

[subshakerz]

Umesh Yadav used to bowl within himself under Dhoni, but with Kohli he was a much different bowler which was evident in the 2017 BG Trophy.

Kohli clearly emphasized pace even if the bowler got hammered for runs, IK had a similar mindset of "bowl as fast as you can and don't worry about accuracy"

Ishant Sharma is another good example of a bowler who was given a new life.