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Thread: 2014 New Zealand Election thread

  1. #61
    International Coach HeathDavisSpeed's Avatar
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    Why do dogs and cats deserve special attention over chimps, rats or even prokaryotes? Ridiculous. I don't believe animals should be tested on for anything other than medicinal purposes, but whichever animal provides the closest human parallel should be used in order to minimise e volume of testing overall. To exclude testing on cats and dogs for aesthetic reasons is absurd. Also, how would you propose testing for veterinary medicine?
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  2. #62
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    You already know the answer so why pose it as a question. Emotional reasons. I have no attachment to rats.
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  3. #63
    International Coach KiWiNiNjA's Avatar
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    People are stupid.

    Animal pounds put down thousands (?) of animals every year, because people go out and get a cuddly puppy and then later realise that they actually have to look after it. These animals are put down for no other reason than human stupidity and selfishness, yet testing drugs that could benefit humans is deemed inhumane.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiWiNiNjA View Post
    People are stupid.

    Animal pounds put down thousands (?) of animals every year, because people go out and get a cuddly puppy and then later realise that they actually have to look after it. These animals are put down for no other reason than human stupidity and selfishness, yet testing drugs that could benefit humans is deemed inhumane.
    Misses the point, surely?

    The undoubtedly true fact that thousands of animals die due to human ****ishness bears no relevance to the rights or wrongs of killing another load of animals testing drugs on them.

    The rights and wrongs of animal testing, IMO, depend on variables that vary enough that I think that you basically have to look at it case by case. I think a lot of the arguments for animal testing basically boil down to human chauvinism (if that is a term), but on the other hand if enough human lives are saved by animal testing relative to animal lives lost then it can certainly be justifiable.

    I sort of agree with HDS regarding testing on cats and dogs vs rats. Emotional reasons not to test on cats and dogs aren't good reasons. On the other hand, if it upsets enough people (for whatever reason) to test on cats and dogs then that can be a reason in itself not to test on them.
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  5. #65
    International Coach KiWiNiNjA's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree.

    Just saying there are bigger animal problems that hardly ever get a mention, yet animal testing seems to get instant outrage from the masses, even without specifics of the testing.

    Or maybe I'm not paying it enough attention.....

  6. #66
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Halsey View Post
    Emotional reasons not to test on cats and dogs aren't good reasons.
    Perhaps. I for one am very comfortable making decisions on the basis of emotion. I just recognise when I am doing it. When you are making decisions based on emotion unconsciously that is a problem.
    Or when you are making decisions on the basis of negative emotions (although sometimes that can work out ok too). In business people who are emotional decision makers focus on the values at hand in a decision and proceed from there. The values on hand with using cats and dogs is that on one hand they are our pets and we dote after them and make them members of our families, and on another hand under different situations we deliberately harm them sometimes causing their death or irreparable harm. This makes us inconsistent in our treatment of those species.
    Last edited by Hurricane; 02-05-2014 at 08:46 PM.

  7. #67
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiWiNiNjA View Post
    People are stupid.
    .
    I realise you meant that post in the context of this debate. But I wanted to comment on it as a stand alone sentence as you punctuated it.

    In business and in life stupidity is excusable - a lack of integrity isn't.

  8. #68
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
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    I think the animal testing debate needs to be taken into the context of the new legal high laws which hopefully will be passed through. Because in NZ at least thats pretty much the only industry for which animal testing is crucial, all the pharmaceuticals can easily bugger of overseas.

    Mice share 99% of human genes, which is to say testing on mice in particular tends to result in bloody useful data for preliminary testing. Now if legals have to be tested as safe that means animal testing, or other methods that correlate much less closely to the results expected from humans. So if animal testing is banned we could get a scenario where its impossible for potential legal highs to become legal, which would be a very good outcome. The other scenario is where it would be much easier for legal highs to become legalised. Which would happen as results can be skewed, can be proved safe by inaccurate measurements etc. which is definitely a harmful result. Nfi which of the two would occur.
    Last edited by ohnoitsyou; 04-05-2014 at 01:31 AM.

  9. #69
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    So if animal testing is banned we are either going to get a scenario where its impossible for legal highs to become well legal, which would be a very good outcome..
    is that sentence saying what you meant it to say.
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  10. #70
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
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    Ftr don't really sympathise with the anti-vivisectioners. Its like the people who complain about hunters because ohh Bambi's so cute, the things are pests ffs. Same with cats and dogs, although at least dogs have purposes.

    What people often forget is that there is no morality in science at all. None at all, which is one of the reasons creationists find it so abhorrent. There never has been and its going to be an uphill battle to change that, because something as subjective as morality will never be readily accepted by science as a whole.

  11. #71
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurricane View Post
    is that sentence saying what you meant it to say.
    Will do in a minute. My grammar is terrible, so bare with me if anything doesn't make sense.

  12. #72
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    Will do in a minute. My grammar is terrible, so bare with me if anything doesn't make sense.
    No that's ok it is a double negative and I missed it the first read through, no need to edit.

  13. #73
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Flem274*'s Avatar
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    @ ohno: Scientific institutions have had morality introduced through ethics committees which have to approve every new study they oversee. Thank goodness too, because experiments which have no compassion or regard for the patient (human or animal) could lead us down a dubious path. I'm not thrilled with animal testing, I just think it's neccessary for the greater good and it isn't something I would want to go unregulated.

    I also think a mixture of sciences will be able to shed some light on our morals and why we have the ones we have. The evolutionary sciences (biology, psychology etc) love investigating morals (they're just not very good at it yet because those fields are so young).
    Last edited by Flem274*; 04-05-2014 at 01:36 AM.
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  14. #74
    International Debutant ohnoitsyou's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    @ ohno: Scientific institutions have had morality introduced through ethics committees which have to approve every new study they oversee. Thank goodness too, because experiments which have no compassion or regard for the patient (human or animal) could lead us down a dubious path. I'm not thrilled with animal testing, I just think it's neccessary for the greater good and it isn't something I would want to go unregulated.

    I also think a mixture of sciences will be able to shed some light on our morals and why we have the ones we have. The evolutionary sciences (biology, psychology etc) love investigating morals (they're just not very good at it yet because those fields are so young).
    It's not the same across the wider world is it though?

    As always it comes down to politics, historically politics has determined what is acceptable to research and what is not. America abandoned its eugenics program after WW2 for example. No first world country is going to get away with inhumane research on humans because of the outrage it would create. So when im talking morality its in the smaller scheme of things, such as worrying about the ethics of animal testing rather than the wholesale who gives a **** about the consequences kind of stuff.

  15. #75
    Cricketer Of The Year Hurricane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ohnoitsyou View Post
    inhumane research on humans because of the outrage it would create.
    Correct. But humans do get used in later more final phases of drug testing. Gawd knows what disclaimers you would have to sign to participate in one of those trials.

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