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Thread: Anti-vaxxers

  1. #31
    School Boy/Girl Captain Гурин's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howe_zat View Post
    Good lord

    I can't even get my head around how that happens. How does something based entirely on discredited science and media hype even manage to cross the language barrier?
    Cross the language barrier! Italy and Pakistan can lay claim to be the homelands of conspiracies. You can bet on this, half of the population of either state proudly considers himself to be smarter than the state and his lies and so will believe any bull**** that is the opposite of any 'official' version about anything.

    You have no idea, we have some people in national parties who state that medicine and vaccines are useless and that everybody should simply drink his own piss to be healty.

    No really, is by one of the the medical advisors for the Five Star Movement* in Lombardy. Do you realize how much it would help the country's health spending if everybody was simply drinking piss? Hell, to think of those fellas who've spent years studying medicine or nursing studies, while they could have simply pissed in peoples' mouth the whole time.

    Sadly, it's all true.

    It's in italian, I hope that google translate will do some justice to the idiocy of the guy:

    Chi c'è dentro i Meetup grillini | VICE Italia

    *first party in the country in the last elections, as I wrote somewhere else in this forum is nearly officially the party of conspirationists. You know, AIDS doesn't exist, Bildemberg, underskin computer chips in everybody, all that stuff (and more, you don't want to know their political program, scary as ****). 160 of them sit in the parliament at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flem274* View Post
    They also sent a bunch of seismologists to jail for not predicting an earthquake, so maybe this shouldn't be surprising.
    This one, however, it's not entirely accurate, for the seismologists have been sent to jail because they assured the population that there'll be no earthquake, and they did so because the chief of the Civil Protection** asked them to do so. However I agree that they were used as scapegoats, while mayors, politicians and constructors eventually got it nearly for free.


    **Bertolaso, a guy as crooked as Satan himself, and a close friend of, guess who?, S.B. He retired shortly afterwards, leaving the Civil Protection, which here is mainly used to distribute money and favors, in a mess.
    Last edited by Гурин; 15-05-2013 at 11:41 AM.
    It's the pitch, stupid.

  2. #32
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Um, let me see if google translate has this right. There's this website whence F5M has recruited many leaders, and they have polls of the sort 'Proposal M5s: Vaccinations are no longer mandatory for the Lombardy region.' where if they receive a majority on that forum the party will enact it as policy in Lombardy?

    Oh and
    I vaccini ti fanno diventare gay?
    Sì.... Perché l’omosessualità è una malattia
    Goodness. That bloke does seem to have invented a couple of extra crackpot things on top of Wakefield's nuttery.

    We got the 'Grillo is a clown' angle on TV here in Norway, but not a clown who takes the advice of madmen.

    Does Vanoli post on that website, or did they link the two together for shock value?
    Last edited by Samuel_Vimes; 15-05-2013 at 11:54 AM.
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  3. #33
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Гурин View Post

    This one, however, it's not entirely accurate, for the seismologists have been sent to jail because they assured the population that there'll be no earthquake, and they did so because the chief of the Civil Protection** asked them to do so. However I agree that they were used as scapegoats, while mayors, politicians and constructors eventually got it nearly for free.
    I thought they said it was unlikely - which was scientifically accurate.
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  4. #34
    School Boy/Girl Captain Гурин's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    Um, let me see if google translate has this right. There's this website whence F5M has recruited many leaders, and they have polls of the sort 'Proposal M5s: Vaccinations are no longer mandatory for the Lombardy region.' where if they receive a majority on that forum the party will enact it as policy in Lombardy?
    Absolutely

    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    Oh and


    Goodness. That bloke does seem to have invented a couple of extra crackpot things on top of Wakefield's nuttery.

    We got the 'Grillo is a clown' angle on TV here in Norway, but not a clown who takes the advice of madmen.

    Does Vanoli post on that website, or did they link the two together for shock value?
    Proposta M5S: Vaccinazioni pediatriche non più obbligatorie per regione Lombardia - Lombardia 5 stelle (Milano, MI) - Meetup

    Check it for yourself, Vanoli is the biggest contributor on this theme in their official website. And Grillo made a show about the 'Vaccinations Scam'.

    Unfortunately, this is exactly the way their 'direct democracy' works, a bicycle shed problem^2. If tomorrow the majority votes that the earth is flat, they'll present a project of law about it, unless Grillo vetoes it.

    This is what happens when unqualified people get to vote on matters on which they don't know. If we were to vote for medics in our clinics, we'd have a bunch of shamans and sorcerers leading the hospitals. Quite easy, when education is long suffering in a country, and Italy, unfortunately, is one of the countries in Europe which lacks the most in education.

    Before, some have been talking about a 'voting license', but for me, simply educating people would suffice. Unfortunately -again- funds for education are going through heavier cuts with every passing year, and this while the majority of our older population have often been in school for no more than 5 or 6 years (often less), expecially in the south. For them, education has come through television in the '60s. You can imagine now the level of the debates.

    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    I thought they said it was unlikely - which was scientifically accurate.
    Incorrect, the 'big one' wasn't the first time the earth shaked in L'Aquila, there have been a flux of increasily strong (but minor) quakes in the few months before. Scientifically accurate would have been to say 'We don't know for sure', but to dismiss it under the influence of some (kinda) politician it's something else. Again, to make them scapegoats is still wrong, but they didn't play clean.
    Last edited by Гурин; 15-05-2013 at 12:38 PM.


  5. #35
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    They didn't dismiss it - there is no correlation between what was happening and a big one happening. Can you show me the exact statement that you think was over the top?

  6. #36
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Гурин View Post
    Absolutely
    Sigh.

    We do have Norwegian-language websites of this tripe too (largely just translating from English sources) but at least most politicians know they're off their nut with regards to such obviously settled science as vaccines, at least.

  7. #37
    School Boy/Girl Captain Гурин's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    They didn't dismiss it - there is no correlation between what was happening and a big one happening. Can you show me the exact statement that you think was over the top?
    Hell, you're sending me through 900+ pages of verdict And it's more than probable than in the next grade of judgment the decision will be overturned, mind (it happens in the majority of trials here, which doesn't speaks so well about our judiciary system)

    I repeat, it was NOT because of their inability of predicting the eathquake, but because of the political mess of their meeting which was influenced by the CP and which convinced some people to undervaluate the risk (just to say, after that meeting, the mayor decided to reopen the schools, which had already been closed for two days for fear of a bigger EQ. Maybe you missed this part, but people in L'Aquila were absolutely scared about an EQ up to that meeting, some were already sleeping outside their houses)

    I'll report the main part and try to translate it:

    «benché fossero consapevoli del grave rischio sismico a cui è soggetto il territorio, fornirono, in seguito a quella riunione, valutazioni superficiali, approssimative e generiche, del tutto inefficaci ai doveri normativi imposti»

    «despite being aware of the severe sysmical risk to which that territory is subject, they gave, after that meeting, superficial, generic and approsimative evaluations, absolutely ineffective under the law's requirements»

    And a few deposited quotes.

    BERTOLASO “Ti chiamerà De Bernardinis, il mio vice, al quale ho detto di fare una riunione lì all’Aquila domani su questa vicenda di questo sciame sismico che continua, in modo da zittire subito qualsiasi imbecille, placare illazioni, preoccupazioni, eccetera

    "De Bernardis, who's my deputy, will call you. I told him to organize a meeting there in L'Aquila tomorrow about this continuous seismic swarm, so that we can shut up any imbecile, speculation, worrings, etc"

    Li faccio venire all’Aquila o da te o in prefettura, decidete voi, a me non frega niente, di modo che è più un’operazione mediatica, hai capito? Così loro, che sono i massimi esperti di terremoti diranno: è una situazione normale, sono fenomeni che si verificano, meglio che ci siano 100 scosse di 4 scala Richter piuttosto che il silenzio perché 100 scosse servono a liberare energia e non ci sarà mai la scossa, quella che fa male”.

    "I'll send them to L'Aquila or to your place or in prefecture, your choice, I couldn't care less, it must be a mediatic operation, got it? So that they, the maximum experts about earthquakes, will say: everything's normal, these are phenomena that happens, 100 quakes of 4 magnitudo Richter are better than silence because these 100 quakes are needed to let energy free so that there'll not be the quake, the one that hurts'

    Parla con De Bernardinis e decidete dove fare questa riunione domani, che non è perché siamo spaventati e preoccupati, ma è perché vogliamo tranquillizzare la gente“.

    "Talk to De Bernardinis and choose where this meeting will be tomorrow, (and say) that is not because we're scared and preoccupied, but is because we want to reassure the people"


    After which, the experts said in the meeting during the 3rd of March that 'a quake like the one in 1703 is unlikely'. Mind, not impossible, unlikely. But they were not condemned because of this judgment, but because this judgment was expressed out of influence and not only by scientifical evaluations, hell, was taken BEFORE any scientifical evaluation (the PM found contradictions in their reports). AND it was found afterwards that the internal report WAS MODIFIED after the quake.

    So, for the last time: they weren't condemned because they couldn't forecast the earthquake. They were condemned because they agreed beforehand to give a forecast to reassure the population, independentely from any scientific data they had in their hand.
    Last edited by Гурин; 15-05-2013 at 01:45 PM.

  8. #38
    School Boy/Girl Captain Гурин's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    Sigh.

    We do have Norwegian-language websites of this tripe too (largely just translating from English sources) but at least most politicians know they're off their nut with regards to such obviously settled science as vaccines, at least.
    Ah, dirty politicians! The Five Stars Movement is made of people!

    (They call themselves 'citizens'. You know, 'Politician' is seen as an insult over here, they're seen by the majority as the reason of our current struggling. But I don't want to bore you with details of how the behaviour they contest to the politicians can be found in nearly everybody's everyday life)

    Just a note to you, I was recently trying to translate the Arbeiderpartiet's new program (a few years ago I studied a bit of Bokmal, I still occasionally [try to] read the Dagsavisen website), because that party is seen as a model over here. However, it came out that the difference is not so much in what's written in the statute or the program (they're quite similar to the PD or PSI ones), as to what are the ethics of the people involved, so eventually I gave it up, but I still have it in my ebook reader


    (...and then it was found out that Samuel Vimes is a norwegian conservative, who despise the Arbeiderpartiet from the bottom of his soul to the tip of his penis)
    Last edited by Гурин; 15-05-2013 at 02:00 PM.

  9. #39
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Samuel_Vimes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Гурин View Post
    However, it came out that the difference is not so much in what's written in the statute or the program (they're quite similar to the PD or PSI ones), as to what are the ethics of the people involved, so eventually I gave it up
    Lol, quite. We make a big deal of left and right but actually it's more about not getting corrupt ****s elected.

    Quote Originally Posted by Гурин View Post
    who despise the Arbeiderpartiet from the bottom of his soul to the tip of his penis)
    That bloke is locked up.

    Not sure how any conservative could admire the fictional character Samuel Vimes, but then again I've never understood conservatives.

  10. #40
    School Boy/Girl Captain Гурин's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel_Vimes View Post
    Lol, quite. We make a big deal of left and right but actually it's more about not getting corrupt ****s elected.
    ...getting honest AND competent people elected. Otherwise we fall in Grillo's trap, he candidated a bunch of nobodies to the parliament who don't even know how to propose a new law, only because they were honest.

    Kinda like thinking that a butcher would do a better job at driving a F1 than a corrupted F1 driver because atleast he's honest. Politics looks easy, but they are not, and unfortunately the effects of bad moves are usually felt in the long run, when the hot potato is in someone else's hand. He also makes a big deal about lowering the politicians' wages to get rid of people who wants to live OF politics, but the risk is to alienate the excellences.

    Public funding for newspapers is another example: if you get rid of it, the papers will be bought by big corporations and will publish the news that they will want them to publish; but if you allow it, then there'll be newspapers founded only to put public money in the owner's pockets.

    It's a delicate and difficult equilibrium.
    Last edited by Гурин; 15-05-2013 at 03:24 PM.

  11. #41
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  12. #42
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Good. It's criminal not to vaccinate your children.

  13. #43
    Request Your Custom Title Now! Spikey's Avatar
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    ok so guns are fine but
    Indians can't bowl - Where has the rumour come from as I myself and many indian friends arwe competent fast bowlers ?

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  14. #44
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Yes. It's a crime to not give adequate medical care to children - we've sent people to prison for faith healing kids with cancer instead of going to a doctor.

  15. #45
    Spanish_Vicente sledger's Avatar
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    There's no proof that vaccinations actually work in a lot of cases tbf.

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