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Thread: Mass Shooting Incidents in the United States

  1. #346
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    FFS, I didn't say that you guys should adopt the bill of rights.....you guys have a system that seems to work quite well for you guys and that's great. I don't think it would work here. I don't trust my elected officials enough to be so subject to their whims on what rights I should have in an election to election basis.

    Just like I'm completely fine with the gun laws in the UK even though I'd never want them in the US.

    I'm saying I would not feel comfortable at all if we got rid of the bill of rights.
    What does a bill of rights do that legislation can't do?

    Edit: Just saw your edit. So you don't actually trust democracy?
    Last edited by benchmark00; 17-01-2013 at 04:58 AM.
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  2. #347
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Compulsory voting changes things a bit too, pollies have to appeal to more slices of the population.
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  3. #348
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    What does a bill of rights do that legislation can't do?

    Edit: Just saw your edit. So you don't actually trust democracy?
    No I don't trust populous whims that change time to time. The bill of rights were adopted democratically and they can be repealed that way if needed. But it takes broad agreement and a long time of consensus to get it done rather than some catastrophic event causing impassioned changes that we'd later regret. I shudder to think what the patriot act could have looked like after 9/11 without a bill of rights. We have too many Michelle Bachmanns.

    It's still a democracy but I'd want my rights guaranteed by a higher than 50.1% threshold of a current congress.
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  4. #349
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Compulsory voting changes things a bit too, pollies have to appeal to more slices of the population.
    That's probably very true.


  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    FFS, I didn't say that you guys should adopt the bill of rights.....you guys have a system that seems to work quite well for you guys and that's great. I don't think it would work here. I don't trust my elected officials enough to be so subject to their whims on what rights I should have in an election to election basis.

    Just like I'm completely fine with the gun laws in the UK even though I'd never want them in the US.

    I'm saying I would not feel comfortable at all if we got rid of the bill of rights.
    I know you weren't.

    I was commenting more on the 'security blanket' approach most Americans seem to take to the Bill of Rights, as if it prevents your elected officials from taking advantage of things as it is. Sure, you can't meddle with the 2nd Amendment, but set up an election result as you please.
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  6. #351
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Well it doesn't protect everything (it was never designed to be an enumeration of ALL rights), and IMO passing an amendment is a little harder than it should be, but overall I think the benefits of having them far outweigh the downsides.

  7. #352
    Request Your Custom Title Now! benchmark00's Avatar
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    The bill of rights acts as nothing but a straitjacket for necessary change. There are plenty of better ways to protect rights without crippling the system.

  8. #353
    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    Bill of rights are basically Constitutional amendments put into place back then. It can be repealed if there is enough consensus. You can question the Wisdom of having guns there but don't see what's wrong with the concept.

    Australian constitution has no fundamental rights ?

  9. #354
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    It does certainly act as a straightjacket. It was designed explicitly for that reason. But I guess I just disagree on the "necessary change" part. Maybe a couple here and there.

    What other ways do you think could be used to protect rights?

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    It does certainly act as a straightjacket. It was designed explicitly for that reason. But I guess I just disagree on the "necessary change" part. Maybe a couple here and there.

    What other ways do you think could be used to protect rights?
    I guess what I'm saying is that if you're going to have a bill of rights, it's better off being a statutory bill of rights.

    You say that you don't trust the legislature to legislate what is rights, but you're more than happy for an unelected judge to have influence on how the rights evolve.

    Anyway, it doesn't bother me because there are many ways in which the US' democratic system needs changing. The whole system is poor. It's just a shame that it's too late to wipe it and start again.

  11. #356
    Global Moderator Spark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    an unelected judge to have influence on how the rights evolve.
    +appointed by the executive branch in a distinctly partisan, biased manner with the express intent of having an ideological influence on the workings of the court for decades to come.

    Yeah, will pass.
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  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Anyway, it doesn't bother me because there are many ways in which the US' democratic system needs changing. The whole system is poor. It's just a shame that it's too late to wipe it and start again.
    For a large country like USA which is not exactly homogeneous it's held up pretty well tbh. Yeah, it could be better in some ways, but isn't poor.

  13. #358
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    Love how the test for 'not poor' is 'hasn't collapsed'.

  14. #359
    Hall of Fame Member Cevno's Avatar
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    In India we have Fundamental rights built into the constitution, which can be modified only by a 2/3rds majority of both houses.

    And even if they are by those numbers a constitutional bench of the Supreme court can strike it down, if it violates the directive principles and "basic structure" of the constitution.

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Love how the test for 'not poor' is 'hasn't collapsed'.
    How could it be better according to you ?

    I mean it's not like the system hasn't delivered in other ways (I.e Keeping the country together, Economic, social, Liberty etc.) too.

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