Afghanistan Massacre

[silentstriker]

I don't see this as particularly shocking. I'm surprised this stuff doesn't happen a lot more considering the immense stress of being in a situation like that for any length of time.

That's not an excuse - the guilty party ought to be punished severely (life in prison, etc) but this is part of armed conflict and always will be. Thankfully now most civilized countries do handle it well and punish the offenders. Not too long ago (eg the previous foreign army in afghanistan) probably would have laughed.

[Agent Nationaux]

It should be shocking!

This is something new. When was the last time in Afghanistan someone took a gun and deliberately killed civilians. It's completely different to bombing from drones/planes or someone being blown up by IED's. This was a massacre. As Joe said, he was sane enough to deliberately target Afghans and not go mental on his own comrades.

[PhoenixFire]

That's total speculation though, you can't use that as some sort of evidence of him being sane.

Whether it's shocking or not is different from how acceptable it is as well, you seem to have them confused.

He's right to be tried in the US as well, there are good reasons why there is a treaty between the US and Afghanistan which means soldiers aren't tried in Afghan courts.

[Agent Nationaux]

How do I have them confused? And why shouldn't he be tried in an Afghan court?

[PhoenixFire]

Well because when SS says it's shocking, he's saying that because of the circumstances of the troops and how much stress they are under. Whatever else it might be, appalling, I don't think we should be hugely surprised when people who are away from their families, in incredibly stressful situations and in a culture that isn't at all supporting of people having mental breakdowns and are armed go on some killing spree. It's hardly surprising.

And he shouldn't be tried in an Afghan court because their judicial system is totally hopeless at the moment and that's partly why there is an agreement between the US and the Afghan authorities that they won't try US nationals in the Afghan judicial system.

[Agent Nationaux]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFire

Well because when SS says it's shocking, he's saying that because of the circumstances of the troops and how much stress they are under. Whatever else it might be, appalling, I don't think we should be hugely surprised when people who are away from their families, in incredibly stressful situations and in a culture that isn't at all supporting of people having mental breakdowns and are armed go on some killing spree. It's hardly surprising.

And he shouldn't be tried in an Afghan court because their judicial system is totally hopeless at the moment and that's partly why there is an agreement between the US and the Afghan authorities that they won't try US nationals in the Afghan judicial system.

If that's the case, then why is this the only incident of its kind. Why hasn't a British soldier done the same, or a French, or a German. Heck even the Taliban don't do that.

So what do you think will happen to him, and what do you think should happen to him if found guilty?

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFire

And he shouldn't be tried in an Afghan court because their judicial system is totally hopeless at the moment and that's partly why there is an agreement between the US and the Afghan authorities that they won't try US nationals in the Afghan judicial system.

Of course he should be tried in the US judicial system because the US system will have a proper "understanding" of what happened out there

Some pretty pathetic POVs being thrown around in this thread.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by PhoenixFire

He's right to be tried in the US as well, there are good reasons why there is a treaty between the US and Afghanistan which means soldiers aren't tried in Afghan courts.

Lol at the "treaty"

[PhoenixFire]

Lol to suggest the Taliban don't go around indiscriminantly murdering people would be amusing if it didn't happen so often.

I dunno, whatever the US courts decide really. I'd hope that he has a proper psychological examination taken before he is sentenced, obviously.

[sledger]

Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux

If that's the case, then why is this the only incident of its kind. Why hasn't a British soldier done the same, or a French, or a German. Heck even the Taliban don't do that.

So what do you think will happen to him, and what do you think should happen to him if found guilty?

Isn't history littered with incidents like this? I can't recall any specific examples of military persons doing this sort of thing, but I'm willing to bet there have been a fair few. In any case, you sadly see these sorts of things in civilian life far more frequently than you'd like, and soldiers are just people after all, and in far more unforgiving conditions than most ordinary folk. As has been alluded to, this sort of behaviour isn't at all defensible, but it's sadly just one of those things. Add up deteriorating mental conditions, highly pressured situations and access to firearms and this sort of thing will happen.

He's almost certainly going to be found guilty and spend the rest of his life in some form of institution. Whether that's a prison or some sort of mental institute will depend entirely on an evaluation of his mental condition.

Edit: In fact, I remember a British example of this sort of thing now. I think a lot of cadets were shot at a barracks somewhere in the South by some other officer who went a bit nuts not all that long ago.

[PhoenixFire]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

Of course he should be tried in the US judicial system because the US system will have a proper "understanding" of what happened out there

Some pretty pathetic POVs being thrown around in this thread.

Sorry I don't quite understand what you mean by this? I don't see why the US wouldn't do all in their interests to bring him to justice, it's in their best interests as well. He'll be court martialled in Afghanistan, I believe, so it's hardly like he's not gonna be tried by people who had a pretty intimate idea of what went on.

[sledger]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

Of course he should be tried in the US judicial system because the US system will have a proper "understanding" of what happened out there

Some pretty pathetic POVs being thrown around in this thread.

Yeah, a US Military Court will clearly have no experience of dealing with matters concerning conflicts between military staff and civilians.

[G.I.Joe]

It wasn't my contention that the fact that he targeted Afghans instead of his fellow soldiers is conclusive proof of a lack of insanity. It goes without saying that anyone who trains a gun at any number of innocent people is almost certainly bat **** crazy at some level, irrespective of the ethnicity of the victims. However that doesn't completely discount the possibility of a certain degree of rational (if you can call it that) weighing of consequences in his choice of targets.

[sledger]

Originally Posted by G.I.Joe

It wasn't my contention that the fact that he targeted Afghans instead of his fellow soldiers is conclusive proof of a lack of insanity. It goes without saying that anyone who trains a gun at any number of innocent people is almost certainly bat **** crazy at some level, irrespective of the ethnicity of the victims. However that doesn't completely discount the possibility of a certain degree of rational (if you can call it that) weighing of consequences in his choice of targets.

True, but even in the event he made such an analysis, anything that anyone suggests to be the basis for his logic behind choosing his targets will be total conjecture.

[G.I.Joe]

Originally Posted by sledger

True, but even in the event he made such an analysis, anything that anyone suggests to be the basis for his logic behind choosing his targets will be total conjecture.

True. Any thought process behind it cannot be proven, but that there was a conscious decision made is out there for anyone to see. He didn't just suddenly snap while he was out there in the village as part of his duties. He walked into the village 500 yards off his base at 3:00 in the morning, instead of just opening fire within the base itself.