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Thread: Lockheed Martin completes first UK F-35

  1. #16
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    IMO if Australia wants to really be a counterbalance to china or something and truly be able to project its force throughout the region, the money would be much better spent on an aircraft carrier - it is essential to have them to be a true "blue water" navy.

    As I said, you likely won't be engaging china or Russia directly in dogfights so having a fourth vs fifth generation airplane is less of a requirement than having a carrier.

    I know a carrier is much more expensive than a single fighter but IMO that should be a goal - assuming of course that you actually care about counterbalancing another power in the region.
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  2. #17
    International Vice-Captain Redbacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spark View Post
    It's pretty hard to fight something you can't see.

    Granted Russia and China are moving fast towards their own stealth jets.

    I thought we blew the stealth bombers out of the water using simple weather monitoring equipment. You can hide the jet wash but the pressure waves are still picked up.

  3. #18
    International Vice-Captain Redbacks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    I know a carrier is much more expensive than a single fighter but IMO that should be a goal - assuming of course that you actually care about counterbalancing another power in the region.
    At the moment, one estimate is that we would need to devote 60% of our GDP to defense to be able to defend oursevles independently. As such we are much better off kissing US a*** and having as strong a relationship as possible.

  4. #19
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Well "defending" is a broad term - Australia is not going to be invaded by anyone. It doesn't have nuclear weapons but I would think that it certainly has the capabilities and expertise to devote to such an endeavor should such a threat ever materialize. Perhaps not as quickly as a Japan would (who could probably build thousands within months if they wanted) but I wouldn't think that "defending" Australia in terms of facing a world war ii type of threat is really an issue. What's more likely is having the ability to defend your strategic interests and to project force to be able to put pressure politically otherwise on another power, and for that you'd want an aircraft carrier.


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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    I don't think the Chinese (or anyone) would gain much by having australia under their flag or will they?
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

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  6. #21
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Well it's not really a plausible scenario so it really doesnt matter.

  7. #22
    International Vice-Captain Redbacks's Avatar
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    It's seems highly unlikely but if History teaches us anything, it's that everything happened in the past. No, it's that things can change very quickly.

    India is having it's own power struggle with China at the moment. With the latter propping up neighbours all around India

  8. #23
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    Well "defending" is a broad term - Australia is not going to be invaded by anyone. It doesn't have nuclear weapons but I would think that it certainly has the capabilities and expertise to devote to such an endeavor should such a threat ever materialize. Perhaps not as quickly as a Japan would (who could probably build thousands within months if they wanted) but I wouldn't think that "defending" Australia in terms of facing a world war ii type of threat is really an issue. What's more likely is having the ability to defend your strategic interests and to project force to be able to put pressure politically otherwise on another power, and for that you'd want an aircraft carrier.
    Has been the fear for decades that the biggest threat comes from Indonesia, not China or any far-flung neighbour. All but 250M people there in some very small land-masses so it was envisioned as a possibility that while the US was fighting the Ruskies, the world's most densely-populated group of islands might look for a place with more room to set-up. De-classified docs a few years ago showed the very rationale for buying F-111's was they were just big enough to drop a small nuke on Jakarta if needed. Australia's got no interest in trying to defend the coast because a) it's impossible anyway and b) it's much cheaper and more likely to succeed to have versatile fighter/bombers to drop on strategic SE Asian targets than to have a bulky fleet of carriers to take on what are small navies in the region anyway.

    Who knows how correct any of it is but that's the rationale.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 24-11-2011 at 01:07 AM.
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  9. #24
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgey View Post
    The Russians have a new jet, the name of which I don't know, which is apparently comparable to the Raptor.
    Indonesia was projected to have 50 Su-27's by 2010. Same generation as the Eurofighter and one of the reasons why we have the new F/A18's which were flown here a few months back.

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    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbacks View Post
    India is having it's own power struggle with China at the moment. With the latter propping up neighbours all around India
    Care to elaborate?

  11. #26
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbacks View Post
    It's seems highly unlikely but if History teaches us anything, it's that everything happened in the past. No, it's that things can change very quickly.

    India is having it's own power struggle with China at the moment. With the latter propping up neighbours all around India
    History has never dealt with a nuclear capable power's mainland being invaded. The physics of nuclear weapons won't change - it could happen if some madman decided it but it really would end up being a death warrant for the invader (or both sides if both had nukes). China can do what it wants and regardless of relatively minor land disputes, Chinese tanks are unlikely to be rolling into New Delhi.

  12. #27
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    History has never dealt with a nuclear capable power's mainland being invaded. The physics of nuclear weapons won't change - it could happen if some madman decided it but it really would end up being a death warrant for the invader (or both sides if both had nukes). China can do what it wants and regardless of relatively minor land disputes, Chinese tanks are unlikely to be rolling into New Delhi.
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    And none of the two actually gains anything (at least for the foreseeable future) by coming up against one another.

  13. #28
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Top_Cat View Post
    Has been the fear for decades that the biggest threat comes from Indonesia, not China or any far-flung neighbour. All but 250M people there in some very small land-masses so it was envisioned as a possibility that while the US was fighting the Ruskies, the world's most densely-populated group of islands might look for a place with more room to set-up. De-classified docs a few years ago showed the very rationale for buying F-111's was they were just big enough to drop a small nuke on Jakarta if needed. Australia's got no interest in trying to defend the coast because a) it's impossible anyway and b) it's much cheaper and more likely to succeed to have versatile fighter/bombers to drop on strategic SE Asian targets than to have a bulky fleet of carriers to take on what are small navies in the region anyway.

    Who knows how correct any of it is but that's the rationale.
    Both of those are true and obviously I'm not saying a carrier is needed but a land invasion of Australia would not really work whether you guys had a carrier, a fifth generation fighter or only war canoes from a couple thousand years ago - as long as it has the capability to create nuclear weapons. Obviously you'd need a way to deliver that - by missile, ship, submarine, or airplane so I take your point there about potentially needing an airplane to deliver that cargo. A carriers main purpose would be to project aerial power to any part of the world in addition to doing things that Australia might want to do, like set up a blockade or even launch air sorties.

    I'm not saying it's necessarily a bad idea but IMO a carrier would fulfill the requirements of being a deterrent, a force projector, and even as a fighting force against Indonesia more so than a bunch of airplanes. My guess is that a carrier might cost something like the same as maybe 50 planes? I'd personally rather have that plus an airplane one generation older than a newer generation fighter plane. Much more versatile. And incidentally, if it did come to that, a better method to stop an Indonesian landing force (they'd have to secure the sea lanes to do that anyway ).

  14. #29
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend Top_Cat's Avatar
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    lol, projecting force. We're not Murrica, not everyone hates us.

    Jakarta basically gave up East Timor without a fight when INTERFET went in. If they're not prepared to arc up about that and all the nommy natural gas which is leaving the area and will be for years, one wonders how prepared they'd be to arc up about anything enough to be a threat to the Aussie mainland.

    Imagine being an invading force who take Darwin with ease but then realise it's almost 4000Km to Sydney. Ooops.
    Last edited by Top_Cat; 24-11-2011 at 01:38 AM.

  15. #30
    The Wheel is Forever silentstriker's Avatar
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    Ouch . You know all this anti American sentiment will fall by the wayside as soon as a legitimate threat rises from china . We may not look so bad in comparison then .

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