The Official Indian Politics Thread

[Гурин]

Originally Posted by Cevno

That all i understand and the Indian judicial system is slow while the incident disputed from both sides, but what the Italian government has done is almost a fraud and a strict no in global diplomacy even among enemy nations let alone friendly ones.

They gave a falsified assurance in the supreme court of India that they will return and can't vote abroad and the courts in good faith let them go for the 2nd time you could say a bit naively. Now they are saying that they won't return which is basically state sponsored absconding by any standards and doesn't look good for Italy all around.

On the other side, it didn't looked good for india to detain two marines on which they had no judging right, that's why the whole NATO is not blaming Italy's decision, this would have set a milestone? precedent? (my english lacks a word here, google is not helping) quite dangerous for any country. International treaties are clear: in such a case, the marines should be judged in their own country, so, assuming that the shooting has indeed happened in international waters (and that's not 100% sure, I give you that, but they've got 14 bloody months to determine this issue!) India had no right to detain them in first place.

Originally Posted by Cevno

And correct me if i am wrong this is a Caretaker government in Italy doing this too ? Which makes it even more bizarre. Could cause a full scale diplomatic crisis if there's no deal in background as you say which i am not sure is likely, because this Indian government probably wants to suppress facts about Finamerica rather than want them out.

Exactly, suppressing facts. Orsi has been arrested for corrupting his indian counterparts, now I don't know if there's an investigation going over also up there, but what about some blackmailing on the line 'listen, you give us the marines back, and in exchange we're not exposing any of your names involved with the Finmeccanica corruption case'. I mean, they sent these guys back to vote for a period of 4 whole weeks!!! And just two months after their christmas holidays. This SCREAMS 'please keep them this time'. How can that not be fishy? I really doubt that the indian supreme court was simply being ingenuous.

Originally Posted by Cevno

It suits the Indian government to escalate tensions now, break off some agreements with italy and then claim Italy is not co-operating in Finamerica case. And if they want now they can detain the ambassador too as he has submitted to Indian jurisdiction by affidavit and contempt case isn't a criminal case. There's a precedence to this in USA too, so would be interesting now what the Supreme court and the government does. Both are getting a lot of flak for being respectively naive and complicit in this too.

Bah, I'm still quite sure that they are just acting the part. Let's see how it develops and if indeed some third country accepts to act as an arbiter in this case, I heard that the Pakistani government offered to rule as a neutral in this controversy ( )

Originally Posted by Cevno

Also, matters with Italy are always politically sensitive in India right now as the politician heading the ruling alliance is of Italian origin in Sonia Gandhi so the opposition likes to hit there with elections coming soon.

Look, apart from how absurd it would be for a politician to favor his former country over his new adopted one (I'd be actually expecting the opposite, but whatever), I'd be surprised expecially for Sonia Gandhi to care this much about Italy given that we're one of the most individualistic people on earth (you'd have a hard time finding an italian proud of Italy and of it's achievements [apart from football]). In fact, we're probably world champions in loudly despising and hating our own country wherever we go (something that has also something to do with the massive exposure of this case over here) and I can't really say that her decision to leave does give her points for attachment to the motherland.

So yeah, BJP can maybe use this as an electoral gimmick, but it really, really looks just some demagogic babble or, at best, an overtly simplistic analysis.

(a side note, I must say that Indian politics reminds me of italian politics in the '80s, with Congress in the role of the DC, 40 years in charge, nepotistic and corrupted but with some measure, and the BJP in the role of the new idealistic parties riding the wave of 'the old class is corrupted' and 'let's move this country forward'. I just hope it won't end like here, with people eventually complaining that 'it was better when it was worse')

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by ganeshran

Pakistani politicians are notorious for exploiting both religion and the rivalry against India for political gains and to deflect blame from their own poor performance.
.

yeah, unfortunately our breed of politicians (and our generals are politicians too btw ) is one of the WORST in the world (top 5 I reckon if not top 3)

[ganeshran]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

yeah, unfortunately our breed of politicians (and our generals are politicians too btw ) is one of the WORST in the world (top 5 I reckon if not top 3)

To be fair, this is a technique used by politicians all over the world. Polarizing the electorate so that they forget the governance record of the politicians and vote on ethnic/religious lines.

Indian politicians use that a lot as well, just that they dont have a unifiying bogeyman in a common "enemy" like India or a strongly emotional topic like religion. So the effects are confined to a region and usually lead to the Indian politicians losing credibility at the national level

Raj Thackeray drums up the anti north indian sentiment in Maharashtra
Tamil politicians routinely eulogise terrorist organizations like LTTE
Modi (used to) demonise muslims when he was elected - has piped down since he started having national aspirations.
Akali Dal tacitly glorifies Bhindranwale

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Гурин

Bah, I'm still quite sure that they are just acting the part. Let's see how it develops and if indeed some third country accepts to act as an arbiter in this case, I heard that the Pakistani government offered to rule as a neutral in this controversy ( )

[ganeshran]

The problem with the Italian position is that they reneged on an undertaking given by representatives of the government. That is inexcusable in modern diplomacy which trusts such undertakings on good faith.

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by Гурин

On the other side, it didn't looked good for india to detain two marines on which they had no judging right, that's why the whole NATO is not blaming Italy's decision, this would have set a milestone? precedent? (my english lacks a word here, google is not helping) quite dangerous for any country. International treaties are clear: in such a case, the marines should be judged in their own country, so, assuming that the shooting has indeed happened in international waters (and that's not 100% sure, I give you that, but they've got 14 bloody months to determine this issue!) India had no right to detain them in first place.

The facts of the case are disputed from both sides tbh, and so is the understanding of International law. India says Indian vessel was shot at inside their territory while Italy disputes.

Anyway, the Indian supreme court just ruled in the last month or so that they will be tried under a Central government court not especially setup.

This is a usual wrangle in this sort of things where things are being contested under International law. Happens in 1000's of cases around the world every year, but that doesn't mean you get out of it by giving falsified undertakings to a Supreme court of a country and then reneging your promise as a sovereign country to another Friendly country. That is serious breach of good faith.

Look, apart from how absurd it would be for a politician to favor his former country over his new adopted one (I'd be actually expecting the opposite, but whatever), I'd be surprised expecially for Sonia Gandhi to care this much about Italy given that we're one of the most individualistic people on earth (you'd have a hard time finding an italian proud of Italy and of it's achievements [apart from football]). In fact, we're probably world champions in loudly despising and hating our own country wherever we go (something that has also something to do with the massive exposure of this case over here) and I can't really say that her decision to leave does give her points for attachment to the motherland.

So yeah, BJP can maybe use this as an electoral gimmick, but it really, really looks just some demagogic babble or, at best, an overtly simplistic analysis.

There have been a lot of controversial cases with Italy involved tbf right from Quattrochi and Bofors, to Finamerica and now this.

Anyway, i am not saying that is the case but it gives opposition ammunition to fire there and puts extra pressure on this government.

Might be a deal behind the scene as you say, but let's see. That is another angle opposition is taking calling it a "Italian Job" by Congress (Ruling party).

(a side note, I must say that Indian politics reminds me of italian politics in the '80s, with Congress in the role of the DC, 40 years in charge, nepotistic and corrupted but with some measure, and the BJP in the role of the new idealistic parties riding the wave of 'the old class is corrupted' and 'let's move this country forward'. I just hope it won't end like here, with people eventually complaining that 'it was better when it was worse')

Possibly, but BJP has already had a government from 1999 to 2004 which ran a full term under Atal Bihari Vajpayee. It was certainly better than the current UPA regime which has messed up economy due to faulty policies, and is mired in corruption scandals all over the place.

Basically, except for their Hindutva line and BJP being better at administration, their is no big difference in terms of ideology between the 2 parties.

[Cevno]

Exactly, suppressing facts. Orsi has been arrested for corrupting his indian counterparts, now I don't know if there's an investigation going over also up there, but what about some blackmailing on the line 'listen, you give us the marines back, and in exchange we're not exposing any of your names involved with the Finmeccanica corruption case'. I mean, they sent these guys back to vote for a period of 4 whole weeks!!! And just two months after their christmas holidays. This SCREAMS 'please keep them this time'. How can that not be fishy? I really doubt that the indian supreme court was simply being ingenuous.

Possibly that could be the case, but i doubt the court is involved in it..

The government just never contested the bail too hard in court. The state government did but not the central one.

Might be a fishy deal behind the scenes as you say, the more i think about it. So you may have a point there as both governments probably don't want facts to come out.

Bah, I'm still quite sure that they are just acting the part. Let's see how it develops and if indeed some third country accepts to act as an arbiter in this case, I heard that the Pakistani government offered to rule as a neutral in this controversy ( )

!

[silentstriker]

Swiss tourist gang-raped in central India - Yahoo! News

[Agent Nationaux]

That's just terrible.

[8ankitj]

Brings terrible name for Indian tourism. Can't fault if foreigners want to avoid touring India.

[smalishah84]

British tourist injured fleeing India sex attack: police | World | DAWN.COM

If the last paragraph of the article is true then poor manager.

[Cevno]

DMK quits UPA, pulls out ministers; govt says no threat - The Times of India

Wonder it's empty threats or the government could be under serious threat.

[Cevno]

1993 Bombay blasts: how a gun changed Sanjay Dutt's life | NDTV.com

Bollywood actor Sanjay Dutt gets 5 years in jail in 1993 Mumbai serial blasts case - Emirates 24/7

1993 Mumbai blasts: Sanjay Dutt gets 5 yrs in jail, asked to surrender in a month - Hindustan Times

Wow.

[smalishah84]

I don't get it. How is Sanjay Dutt linked to the bombings? I haven't read these articles but from what I had read some guns were found at his place during those times or something?

[Cevno]

He had links with Underworld and Dawood and Anees Ibrahim who were apparently behind these blasts. And these weapons he had came from them apparently along with the weapons that were used in the blast in 2/3 smuggled consignments.

Whether he knew about the plot of the blasts is a different matter, but he has been only charged with illegal possession of Arms right now. Been lucky to get away from a TADA charge which would have had a bigger punishment.

These weapons came in 2/3 smuggled consignments along with the RDX, Grenades etc.. and he asked for some weapons himself from Anees apparently for protection he claims.

Listen to this -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZgT...layer_embedded

And read this -

Tehelka - The People's Paper

Sanjay's case

As such he wasn't directly involved in the blasts anyway yep, and those were tough times in Mumbai in a communally charged environment. Babri demolition resulting in Riots, followed by these blasts.

The Judgement on the whole seems sensible, but it seems he is somewhat of a changed man now and the verdict has been delayed so long for 20 years that it seems harsh in a way now. Hands of Law had to catch up, i guess and he had to pay for his sins even though he has somewhat paid them already.