The Official Indian Politics Thread

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Cevno

1/2 days before, i believe there was a incursion attempt and India fired, to which their was a reaction and in the cross firing that ensued Pakistani soldiers died. This upset Pak army even more and this is seen as a reaction to it.

The problem is that both sides regularly accuse the other of starting incidents. Pakistan firmly maintains that it was India that started firing unprovoked a few days ago and as a result a Pakistani soldier died. And of course the Pakistani army denies killing the two Indian soldiers and is prepared to have the United Nations Observer Group for India and Pakistan hold an investigation

I don’t know what the truth is, but I’m saddened at the loss of life on both sides. I do think SS raises a good point that it could have been terrorist, rather than the Pakistani army, that killed those Indian soldiers.

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Do they have evidence that it was army regulars vs the terrorists?

Don't know if it is possible to have concrete evidence in these cases as the Intruders don't even come in normal army dress, but Intelligence sources and the government sources so far are seem confident that it was Pakistan SSG/Border action team involved in attacks and not the regular force.

[silentstriker]

That's all fair enough but the fact is firing is pretty common along the LoC. It's sad to say this but it seems to be that neither side particularly cares about the loss of a few soldiers, except as a political tool, or they would do something about it one way or another.

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by Fusion

The problem is that both sides regularly accuse the other of starting incidents. Pakistan firmly maintains that it was India that started firing unprovoked a few days ago and as a result a Pakistani soldier died. And of course the Pakistani army denies killing the two Indian soldiers and is prepared to have the United Nations Observer Group for India and Pakistan hold an investigation

There is 0 motive for India to fire unprovoked tbh. It suits India to keep Kashmir off the radar and not help the Pakistani army gain popularity in Pakistan. Indian government is talking on it's own terms on issues it wants to with Pakistan, while largely avoiding the Army.

UNMOGIP is a tactical move anyway, as they know that India since 1972 hasn't dealt with UNMOGIP After the Shimla and Karachi agreement's. India has even restricted their activities in India. To quote Wiki -

India and Pakistan disagree on UNMOGIP’s mandate in Kashmir because India argued that the mandate of UNMOGIP has lapsed after Simla agreement because it was specifically established to observe ceasefire according to Karachi Agreement.

So while Pakistan would want them to get involved in Kashmir again, India would want some other organisation to probe.

[Cevno]

Also with respect to terrorists argument Pakistan for a large time even claimed that those who came in during the Kargil war were terrorists too, before they were finally captured/killed.

This is how Sourabh Kalia was captured when the Kargil war began too, by so called terrorists -

Kargil martyr Saurabh Kalia's torture: Violations by Pakistan unacceptable, says government | NDTV.com

Saurabh Kalia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And then his body was returned after 15 days mutilated through the official channels from the GOP.

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

That's all fair enough but the fact is firing is pretty common along the LoC. It's sad to say this but it seems to be that neither side particularly cares about the loss of a few soldiers, except as a political tool, or they would do something about it one way or another.

More than the firing it is the mutilation and beheading that is striking here.

Now Indian government, is in a problematic situation as it is committed to peace talks with Pakistan and going ahead on that, which it had started despite opposition after 26/11.

If they attack in some similar way militarily, it probably gives Pakistan army what it wanted. But at the same time if it doesn't and carries the talks as normal, the army will be angered too, and there will be public pressure too.

So far the response has been pretty measured and escalating matters militarily without any specific objective won't suit India and achieve nothing much, unless their are further incidents. Maybe some covert response could be taken, but talks need to continue once the new government is sworn in Pakistan.

What do you mean by One way or another, btw ?

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Cevno

There is 0 motive for India to fire unprovoked tbh. It suits India to keep Kashmir off the radar and not help the Pakistani army gain popularity in Pakistan. Indian government is talking on it's own terms on issues it wants to with Pakistan, while largely avoiding the Army.

The firing incidents along the LOC aren’t tied to official directives from the respective governments though. These are soldiers in close proximity of the enemy acting on real or perceived threats. I doubt that a General or a Prime Minister phones in to the LOC and says “let’s fire a few rounds today for fun”. When you have a highly militarized border between sides that have fought wars, nerves are often strained and soldiers unfortunately do open fire. I’m not saying that a Pak or Indian army command would not direct its soldiers to fire, I’m just saying it’s far from certainty.

Originally Posted by Cevno

UNMOGIP is a tactical move anyway, as they know that India since 1972 hasn't dealt with UNMOGIP After the Shimla and Karachi agreement's. India has even restricted their activities in India. To quote Wiki -



So while Pakistan would want them to get involved in Kashmir again, India would want some other organisation to probe.

UNMOGIP is the most logical choice to investigate the incident as they are supposed to be the neutral observers of both sides at the LOC. Nevertheless, I would expect Pakistan would agree to any other international body as well.

[Cevno]

Originally Posted by Fusion

The firing incidents along the LOC aren’t tied to official directives from the respective governments though. These are soldiers in close proximity of the enemy acting on real or perceived threats. I doubt that a General or a Prime Minister phones in to the LOC and says “let’s fire a few rounds today for fun”. When you have a highly militarized border between sides that have fought wars, nerves are often strained and soldiers unfortunately do open fire. I’m not saying that a Pak or Indian army command would not direct its soldiers to fire, I’m just saying it’s far from certainty.

Yeah, that's fair enough but i see those type of incidents to only be a aberration not a norm, in terms of firing that happens.

Anyways, just firing isn't the issue here. That shamefully happens almost semi-regularly and the blame game goes on, but allegedly coming over and mutilating and beheading bodies is what has provoked a emotional response.

This is similar to Ilyas Kashmiri issue of 2000 as well where he took head of a Indian soldier and presented it to Musharraf to be then reportedly rewarded 1 lakh. He was member of the same SSG and then became a Al Qaeda terrorist later, before being killed by Americans -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilyas_Kashmiri

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrin...3&dt=9/20/2009

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...w/17961775.cms

UNMOGIP is the most logical choice to investigate the incident as they are supposed to be the neutral observers of both sides at the LOC. Nevertheless, I would expect Pakistan would agree to any other international body as well.

India can't accept UNMOGIP, as the stated position is that Kashmir is a Bilateral issue after the Shimla agreement. The fear their will be that Pakistan through this issue will try and make Kashmir a International issue again.

A international commission with a specified and outlined objective of just investigating these incidents and nothing else will possibly be a demand India will make. Dunno, what Paksitan's response will be.

[Cevno]

Btw, need to remember that peace talks are moving at a quick speed between India and Pakistan right now and that too on issues like Trade/Visa's which are non contentious largely and not Initially the issues on which Pakistan wanted to talk first.

Manmohan Singh is taking a stand himself on only 1/2 things at the moment and this is one, despite having lost all political capital.


On a sidenote - Some of the reaction from the Paksitan army calling it just a propoganda item, and something engineered by India to deflect attention from the Rape issue is outrageous.

[smalishah84]

tbh there is no way to verify claims from either side....

Pakistan had claimed earlier in the week that Indian soldiers had crossed over and attacked a check post.

And we hear of a similar story a few days later from the Indian side.

Not sure what to believe though.

Having said that the Pakistan army doesn't have a stellar record but I am not too sure in this case.

[Spark]

Originally Posted by Teja.

****ing hell.

Even from afar the steady stream of hatefully idiotic comments on this from politicians and people in positions of power has been nauseatingly bad.

[Cevno]

First World Problems

How bad does sexual harassment get in Delhi? - YouTube

'Imagine': 600 Guitarist Strum John Lennon as Tribute to Indian Rape Victim - YouTube

[Cevno]

The Best Indian Debate Ever - Arnab Goswami VS Abhijit Mukherjee - YouTube

[Cevno]

Sony postpones Crime Patrol episode on Delhi gangrape | Firstpost

Forever Sleepy ‏@DaaruDesi

I&B stops Sony Crime Patrol from telecasting #DelhiGangRape case. Media not allowed in Court proceedings. Why why so much secrecy?

[smalishah84]

Six arrested in new rape of a bus passenger in India | World | DAWN.COM

at least the police seem a bit more pro active here