The Official Pakistan Politics thread

[Black_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Fusion

Imran: I will pick a gun and fight the US with Taliban

"I love Pakistan, but now where do I go for justice? Is there a court of law that will compensate me? No. I would pick up a gun now and fight. And who will I pick up a gun for? The Taliban. I don't like the Taliban. But I will join them, because that is how I will seek justice"

Imran: No threat to Pakistan from Taliban idealogy

The militants themselves, who behead supposed spies and drive out development workers or teachers, are increasingly unpopular. Yet Khan calls the violence a "fight for Pashtun solidarity against a foreign invader". He insists "there is not a threat to Pakistan from Taliban ideology".



PEWS, still assume the same thing?

You are taking quotes out of context.

It seems that people will do anything but acknowledge the fact that occupying someone else's country and dropping bombs on them is going to result in this. What's so hard to understand about this? Now whether you believe the occupation is justified or not is a different matter..but if you are going to occupy someone's land, be prepared to face aggression from them because one thing we can gather from reading History is..people generally don't welcome invaders with flowers and red carpet.

Now before anyone calls me a Taliban as well.. I am not supporting anyone here..all I am saying is based on my observation and understanding of world history..foreign invasion and occupation has always faced resistance..whether it was the great Romans conquerors facing resistance from the Gauls or current US military facing resistance from the Taliban.. Hence I totally understand what Khan is saying..The world has always functioned in this way because imperialist powers invading other lands and people have always existed..war is not a recent phenomena..what is hard for some people today to grasp is that our so called civilized world is not all that different from what we call the uncivilized and barbaric world of the past.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

You are taking quotes out of context.

It seems that people will do anything but acknowledge the fact that occupying someone else's country and dropping bombs on them is going to result in this. What's so hard to understand about this? Now whether you believe the occupation is justified or not is a different matter..but if you are going to occupy someone's land, be prepared to face aggression from them because one thing we can gather from reading History is..people generally don't welcome invaders with flowers and red carpet.

Now before anyone calls me a Taliban as well.. I am not supporting anyone here..all I am saying is based on my observation and understanding of world history..foreign invasion and occupation has always faced resistance..whether it was the great Romans conquerors facing resistance from the Gauls or current US military facing resistance from the Taliban.. Hence I totally understand what Khan is saying..The world has always functioned in this way because imperialist powers invading other lands and people have always existed..war is not a recent phenomena..what is hard for some people today to grasp is that our so called civilized world is not all that different from what we call the uncivilized and barbaric world of the past.

gun post

and I agree that some of those posts that you quote are quite dishonest and pathetic attempt to discredit Imran.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

You are taking quotes out of context.

It seems that people will do anything but acknowledge the fact that occupying someone else's country and dropping bombs on them is going to result in this. What's so hard to understand about this? Now whether you believe the occupation is justified or not is a different matter..but if you are going to occupy someone's land, be prepared to face aggression from them because one thing we can gather from reading History is..people generally don't welcome invaders with flowers and red carpet.

Now before anyone calls me a Taliban as well.. I am not supporting anyone here..all I am saying is based on my observation and understanding of world history..foreign invasion and occupation has always faced resistance..whether it was the great Romans conquerors facing resistance from the Gauls or current US military facing resistance from the Taliban.. Hence I totally understand what Khan is saying..The world has always functioned in this way because imperialist powers invading other lands and people have always existed..war is not a recent phenomena..what is hard for some people today to grasp is that our so called civilized world is not all that different from what we call the uncivilized and barbaric world of the past.

So let me get this straight. What you are saying is “occupying someone else's country and dropping bombs on them is going to result in this”. By “this”, I presume the Taliban’s actions of bombing and killing minorities (which includes children), subjugating women and treating them like cattle, imposing their version of Islam on everyone, and giving safe havens to notorious terrorists to operate freely from their territories. Wow, I didn’t realize the American invasion caused all of this. And of course as Imran states, there is no threat to Pakistan from this type of Taliban ideology.

I’m tired of having the same argument with Imran’s supporters. Either you acknowledge that the Taliban (the Pakistani AND Afghani versions) are an evil force that must be defeated at all costs to save Pakistan and Afghanistan, or you acquiesce to their demands and cede your sovereign territory to them (never mind the fact that you raise holy hell about the American “invaders” controlling Afghan territory). As for me, I’m thankful for every day that Imran is not in power and implementing his “vision” for Pakistan.

[Black_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Fusion

So let me get this straight. What you are saying is “occupying someone else's country and dropping bombs on them is going to result in this”. By “this”, I presume the Taliban’s actions of bombing and killing minorities (which includes children), subjugating women and treating them like cattle, imposing their version of Islam on everyone, and giving safe havens to notorious terrorists to operate freely from their territories. Wow, I didn’t realize the American invasion caused all of this. And of course as Imran states, there is no threat to Pakistan from this type of Taliban ideology.

I’m tired of having the same argument with Imran’s supporters. Either you acknowledge that the Taliban (the Pakistani AND Afghani versions) are an evil force that must be defeated at all costs to save Pakistan and Afghanistan, or you acquiesce to their demands and cede your sovereign territory to them (never mind the fact that you raise holy hell about the American “invaders” controlling Afghan territory). As for me, I’m thankful for every day that Imran is not in power and implementing his “vision” for Pakistan.

Its very difficult to have any logical discussion on this topic because people seem to be so polarised these days...you are arguing with points I never made nor did Khan ever make..
No one who makes this argument ever supports Taliban's ideology.

I will try to say this in the most simplest terms possible because the polarised world that we live in, people read what they want to read..

I personally detest the Taliban ideology..so does Khan and PTI. There should not be any debate on that.

Criticising US occupation and invasion is not the same as supporting the Talibans. If you call yourself a liberal, then please stop living in George Bush's black and white world of "you're either with us or against us'

Now, about the Talibans..for all their atrocities committed in Afghanistan before 9/11, they never hurt America or Pakistan. 9/11 might have been orchestrated by Al Qaeda but they are not the same as the Taliban, especially not today's Taliban. Now I understand most people do not understand this difference..hell they even thought Saddam and Osama were in league at one point before the Iraq war..so this is important that you understand this important difference.

Taliban commits atrocities and violates human rights..but so does a lot of war lords in Africa, lot of CIA trained contras in South America...they are no different..so using that moral argument that "oh I am here to save the women of Afghanistan" is not going to work here.. If you want real change, it has to be through people..The gross human rights violations committed by Taliban in Afghanistan when they were in power, it is for the people of Afghanistan to stand up and remove them..they will not succeed easily..they will die, more atrocities will be committed..but that's the way of the world..Foreign invasion or intrusion is not the answer.

As far as today's Taliban is concerned..this is simply the by product of the invasion..hence those who orchestrated the occupation and those who support the invasion should be tried for human rights violations and all the atrocities being committed today....
Most people tend to think that things happen suddenly in this world..Nothing in this world happens suddenly..Pakistan is a country that had pop singers like Nazia Hasan in the 80s..Pakistan voted for Benazir Bhutto.. Now suddenly this nation has become this zombie land full of religious crazies lusting for American blood...well that might happen in bad zombie movies..does not happen in real life..

Everything happens organically..try to understand that different causes and effect..when you read a headline on BBC saying "US bombing on hospital..8 killed"..try to understand the reverberations of those

You watched the Dark Knight right? Harvey Dent? Joker? Rachel? Two Face? ring a bell?

Now add the Taliban ideology of hatred of 'unbelievers and westerners' to that...

It should make sense.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

Its very difficult to have any logical discussion on this topic because people seem to be so polarised these days...you are arguing with points I never made nor did Khan ever make..
No one who makes this argument ever supports Taliban's ideology.

I will try to say this in the most simplest terms possible because the polarised world that we live in, people read what they want to read..

I personally detest the Taliban ideology..so does Khan and PTI. There should not be any debate on that.

Criticising US occupation and invasion is not the same as supporting the Talibans. If you call yourself a liberal, then please stop living in George Bush's black and white world of "you're either with us or against us'

Now, about the Talibans..for all their atrocities committed in Afghanistan before 9/11, they never hurt America or Pakistan. 9/11 might have been orchestrated by Al Qaeda but they are not the same as the Taliban, especially not today's Taliban. Now I understand most people do not understand this difference..hell they even thought Saddam and Osama were in league at one point before the Iraq war..so this is important that you understand this important difference.

Taliban commits atrocities and violates human rights..but so does a lot of war lords in Africa, lot of CIA trained contras in South America...they are no different..so using that moral argument that "oh I am here to save the women of Afghanistan" is not going to work here.. If you want real change, it has to be through people..The gross human rights violations committed by Taliban in Afghanistan when they were in power, it is for the people of Afghanistan to stand up and remove them..they will not succeed easily..they will die, more atrocities will be committed..but that's the way of the world..Foreign invasion or intrusion is not the answer.

As far as today's Taliban is concerned..this is simply the by product of the invasion..hence those who orchestrated the occupation and those who support the invasion should be tried for human rights violations and all the atrocities being committed today....
Most people tend to think that things happen suddenly in this world..Nothing in this world happens suddenly..Pakistan is a country that had pop singers like Nazia Hasan in the 80s..Pakistan voted for Benazir Bhutto.. Now suddenly this nation has become this zombie land full of religious crazies lusting for American blood...well that might happen in bad zombie movies..does not happen in real life..

Everything happens organically..try to understand that different causes and effect..when you read a headline on BBC saying "US bombing on hospital..8 killed"..try to understand the reverberations of those

You watched the Dark Knight right? Harvey Dent? Joker? Rachel? Two Face? ring a bell?

Now add the Taliban ideology of hatred of 'unbelievers and westerners' to that...

It should make sense.

fantastic post and very well articulated.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

Its very difficult to have any logical discussion on this topic because people seem to be so polarised these days...you are arguing with points I never made nor did Khan ever make..
No one who makes this argument ever supports Taliban's ideology.

I will try to say this in the most simplest terms possible because the polarised world that we live in, people read what they want to read..

I personally detest the Taliban ideology..so does Khan and PTI. There should not be any debate on that.

Criticising US occupation and invasion is not the same as supporting the Talibans. If you call yourself a liberal, then please stop living in George Bush's black and white world of "you're either with us or against us'

Let's recap. Here's what you stated in your original post:

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

It seems that people will do anything but acknowledge the fact that occupying someone else's country and dropping bombs on them is going to result in this. What's so hard to understand about this?

Please explain to me what you meant by "result in this"? The US invasion caused the Taliban to commit atrocities against fellow Muslims and minorities? Why is there a mention of the US by Khan and his supporters every time someone brings up the evil ideology and atrocities of the Taliban? Are Imran and his supporters seriously this deluded that they think the Taliban would not be committing atrocities if it weren't for the US presence? The US is not the cause of their evil actions. They behaved exactly the same way and committed the same atrocities prior to the US invasion and they will continue the same things after the US leaves in 2014.

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

Now, about the Talibans..for all their atrocities committed in Afghanistan before 9/11, they never hurt America or Pakistan. 9/11 might have been orchestrated by Al Qaeda but they are not the same as the Taliban, especially not today's Taliban. Now I understand most people do not understand this difference..hell they even thought Saddam and Osama were in league at one point before the Iraq war..so this is important that you understand this important difference.

The above is an extremely naive statement at best and willful distortion of history at worst. The Taliban didn't hurt the US prior to 9/11? They allowed OBL and Al Qaeda to freely operate in the country and plan the whole freaking operation! If I allow someone to stay safely at my house, and then train and plan for murdering you, I'd be very culpable for your demise. To say the Taliban didn't harm the US is frankly laughable.

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

Taliban commits atrocities and violates human rights..but so does a lot of war lords in Africa, lot of CIA trained contras in South America...they are no different..so using that moral argument that "oh I am here to save the women of Afghanistan" is not going to work here.. If you want real change, it has to be through people..The gross human rights violations committed by Taliban in Afghanistan when they were in power, it is for the people of Afghanistan to stand up and remove them..they will not succeed easily..they will die, more atrocities will be committed..but that's the way of the world..Foreign invasion or intrusion is not the answer.

I'm a Pakistani-American and hence my chief concern is with what's happening in Pakistan and America, and not with war lords in Africa. The Taliban pose an existential threat to Pakistan. I want them eradicated. Pakistan tried "peace deals" with them numerous times in the past and that brought us nowhere. All it did was allow the Taliban to regroup and rearm to cause even more havoc.

Easy for you to say it is "for the people of Afghanistan to stand up and remove them". Try standing up to ruthless barbarians that outgun you and are not opposed to blowing up your children in a fight. May I ask how the whole "stand up and remove them" philosophy is working out for the Palestinians by the way? I'm sure they're about to get their independence (with all the land they lay claim to) the day after tomorrow. We don't live in a fairy tale world. The people don't always overthrow the bad guys. Sometimes they need help. Defeating the Taliban is in the interest of everyone concerned: the people of Afghanistan/Pakistan and the governments of Afghanistan, Pakistan, and the US. It's not just about morality, it's about survival of your way of life.

Originally Posted by Black_Warrior

As far as today's Taliban is concerned..this is simply the by product of the invasion..hence those who orchestrated the occupation and those who support the invasion should be tried for human rights violations and all the atrocities being committed today....

Again with blaming America for the atrocities of the Taliban. The US invasion does not cause the Taliban to shoot 14 year old girls. The US does not cause the Taliban to kill minorities. The US does not cause the Taliban to subjugate women. Why is that so hard to understand? Ignore reality all you want, but I assure you that the Taliban will not go away once the US does. They are here to stay and they will want to take over both Afghanistan and Pakistan and transform them into their vision. Either we fight them and defeat them, or we allow them to slowly take over.

[Agent Nationaux]

Taliban do need to be destroyed, but I would rather that the Pakistani military do it than US drone attacks. As I have said before the Lankans did it, so we can as well. The only concern is whether our military has the heart.

Imran wants to get the tribals on our side to fight against the taliban, but that's difficult when they are being droned.

And the Talibs will continue to kill and commit atrocities despite what the US does or did (I agree with you on this Fusion), but there does seem to be a cause-effect relationship between drone attacks and Taliban recruiting more and more angry/marginalised Pakistanis. More terrorists are being created.

I'm sure you must remember Pakistan in the 90's, and I certainly do. We never had this bull****, where people were killing each other without any reason or markets exploding or other crap. The Pakistan I remember before 9/11 was a much safer place and better off. We had tourists in places like Naran, Kagan, Murree, etc.

[Agent Nationaux]

Some questions to consider.

Where are TTP recruiting all these people from and how?

How come this started to occur only after 9/11 and why not before?

What happens to the families of drone victims, especially their young male relatives? Could they not be radicalised?

I know there probably isn't much data on this, but surely their must be some relationship.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux

Taliban do need to be destroyed, but I would rather that the Pakistani military do it than US drone attacks. As I have said before the Lankans did it, so we can as well. The only concern is whether our military has the heart.

I completely agree with you. It should be Pakistan, not the US, leading the fight to defeat the Taliban. It's Pakistan that has more to lose if the Taliban succeed. If that is indeed Imran’s strategy, than I would support him. However, nothing that I have heard from him so far gives me the hope that he plans to confront the Taliban.

[Agent Nationaux]

I think he wants to get the tribal leaders on our side to fight against the TTP. But I'm not 100% sure.

[smalishah84]

Abdul Qadeer Khan registers party for vote | DAWN.COM

LOL

[smalishah84]

Nawaz pledges to put country on road to progress | DAWN.COM

mr sharif.....how will you do it this time when you couldn't do it for the last 27 years?

[smalishah84]

Pakistan agrees release of more Taliban prisoners | DAWN.COM

so what exactly is going on?

[smalishah84]

on the great man's 60th birthday

Saad Shafqat : Saad Shafqat on Imran Khan at 60 | Cricinfo Magazine | ESPN Cricinfo

[smalishah84]

A new Pakistani Taliban chief emerging? | DAWN.COM

This saga just continues to get more and more confusing. Does anybody really know what the hell is going on?