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Thread: The Official Pakistan Politics thread

  1. #76
    State Captain slowfinger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux View Post
    The Taliban never intended to conquer the world. You have to understand their mentality. They only wanted a better Afghanistan free from drugs, prostitution etc. That's why they stood up (a talib is a student). Before 9/11 the US never cared for the Taliban because they were harmless. The US only came after Al Qaida. The Taliban even offered to hand over Bin Laden, which the US refused because they wanted the country. Now the Taliban are fighting for their homeland (can you really blame them for that).

    And once the US leaves, the Talibs will come back into power because the Afghan government is weak and is mainly Tajik. Most of the population of Afghanistan is Pushtun and so are the Talibs. Do you really think the majority Pushtuns will support the Tajik government once US leaves. Pushtuns always support their tribe first (that's their mentality).

    Once the US leaves, Pakistan will have a chance to sort itself out. At the moment the military is using this to their advantage by playing their double game with the US and Pakistani people. They are diverting the education, health and other budgets to themselves and also taking money from the US. This is what Imran is trying to sort out. That is why he wants the US gone, so that Pakistan has a chance to manage its problems. But I don't know how he will manage the ISI, however has Zardari managed it, or did Sharif manage it. We aren't voting for Imran to manage the military, we are voting for him because he is better than the rest and he will improve the situation in Pakistan.
    9/11 is a load of bull**** dude... *bring on the hate* The American's just used that as an excuse to invade the Taliban, and concerning Pakistan, we need them out. That is what Imran wants to do.
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  2. #77
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    pretty strong sentiments there
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  3. #78
    Cricketer Of The Year Xuhaib's Avatar
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    The only reason I am in favor of Imran is his promise reforming the tax system and getting the judiciary independent. Pakistan's foreign policy will always be dictated by the army Imran or no Imran.

  4. #79
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    As promised, let me present a case against The Messiah, err I mean Imran Khan. I warn you, this will be a long read. I also fully expect this thread to blow up in outrage over my remarks and for me to be labeled as a tool for corrupt politicians like Zardari/Nawaz/Altaf. So be it. Iím going to start with listing a few things I like about Imran. First and foremost, heís my favorite cricket player of all-time and the reason I started watching the sport. Thatís not really relevant to this thread though (but I do wonder how many of his supporters mix their feelings for the cricket player with the politician). I believe Imran is probably the least corrupt of all Pakistani politicians. I donít think he can ever be bought, which is an admirable thing. I also greatly admire his efforts in building the cancer hospital for the poor, which is probably his lifeís greatest achievement. See there? I can see the good in him. Unfortunately, I also see the bad.

    Imranís a hypocrite:

    This supposed champion of democracy and peopleís power actually has a terrible record in supporting democracy itself. He had a very friendly relationship with arguably the worst dictator in Pakistanís history, Zia Ul Haq. But that was prior to his entry into politics and one can argue he was merely indulging the head of state. However, nothing can justify this democratic championís support of General Musharraf in 1999. Thatís right folks; Imran supported the military coup that overthrew Nawaz Sharif. Now there is no doubt that Sharif was corrupt and incompetent, and was pushing Pakistan to tilt even more towards a religious hard line. Be that as it may, he was the democratically elected Prime Minister of the country. If Imran didnít like his policies (and 90% of the country didnít), he shouldíve led a campaign to defeat him at the polls. Instead, he supported the military in toppling democracy. If a politician in any other country where democracy is practiced had done the same thing as Imran, his legitimacy to govern would forever be tarnished. In Pakistan, Imran is treated like the savior of democracy, and today every other sentence from Imranís mouth is about the will of the people and practicing democratic principles! Also, after consistently accusing Altaf Hussain of murder and even filing a case against him, he has since softened his stance. Why even consider aligning yourself with ďmurderersĒ Mr. Khan? Inconsistent much?

    Imran also loves to attack the character of his political rivals. He advocates personal responsibility and doing the right thing. Of course what Imran forgets to mention is none of that actually applies to him. The Sita White affair is proof of that. Imran conceived an illegitimate child with Sita White, Tyrian, and then denied being the father. He lost a paternity suit in 1997. To me, it is absolutely disgusting that he would run away from his responsibility like that. We all make mistakes and I donít fault Imran for conceiving a child when he didnít intend to. I do, however, fault him for abandoning said child and refusing to own up to his mistake. What moral standing does Imran have to criticize Zardari, Nawaz, or any other politicianís characters when he himself is no paradigm of virtue? Oh by the way, if anyone has the gall to attack him on the Sita White issue, Imran is not above responding with a racist joke (listen from 2:20 onwards). For those that donít understand Urdu, Imran responds to a dark-skinned politicianís claim that Tyrian looks like him (Imran) by saying that if he went to Africa, heís sure to find lots of children that look like the (dark-skinned) politician. Class personified!

    Imranís soft on extremism:

    Imran has consistently been soft on extremist parties in Pakistan, as well as the Taliban. IMO, he only offers lip service about Taliban being evil terrorists. All I ask is that Imran only protest half as much against the act of terrorism that the Taliban commit as he does against the United States. Hey Imran, how about staging a dharna against the Taliban? Just once? Instead, he is willing to pick a gun and join them against the US! Let that sink in for a second. He is willing to join the same guys who routinely blow up innocent children, bomb schools and hospitals, and behead anyone who doesnít wear a beard. He surrounds himself with extremists like Ejaz Chaudhry and Hamid Gul. He also formed an alliance in the past with one of the most hard-line extremist parties in Pakistan, the Jamat e Islami (until things turned sour later politically and they parted ways). Imranís solution to ending terrorism is for America to withdraw from the subcontinent and to have ďpeace talksĒ with the Taliban. He ignores the fact that the Taliban took advantage of previous peace deals offered to them by Pakistan to regroup and plan even more attacks. And of course the Taliban will leave Pakistan alone if Pakistan leaves them alone. Thatís what they want! To be left alone to commit atrocities without anyone stopping them. What Imran needs to understand is that the Taliban are butchers and monsters. We shouldnít be making peace deals with them, we should be eradicating them.


  5. #80
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    I actually have more to say about Imran's naive and dangerous foreign and economic policies, but I'll post that on another day. I'm sure I've written enough to leave the Imran fan boys seething with anger so I look forward to the rage.
    Last edited by Fusion; 02-11-2011 at 09:28 PM.

  6. #81
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post

    Imranís a hypocrite:

    This supposed champion of democracy and peopleís power actually has a terrible record in supporting democracy itself. He had a very friendly relationship with arguably the worst dictator in Pakistanís history, Zia Ul Haq. But that was prior to his entry into politics and one can argue he was merely indulging the head of state. However, nothing can justify this democratic championís support of General Musharraf in 1999. Thatís right folks; Imran supported the military coup that overthrew Nawaz Sharif. Now there is no doubt that Sharif was corrupt and incompetent, and was pushing Pakistan to tilt even more towards a religious hard line. Be that as it may, he was the democratically elected Prime Minister of the country. If Imran didnít like his policies (and 90% of the country didnít), he shouldíve led a campaign to defeat him at the polls. Instead, he supported the military in toppling democracy. If a politician in any other country where democracy is practiced had done the same thing as Imran, his legitimacy to govern would forever be tarnished. In Pakistan, Imran is treated like the savior of democracy, and today every other sentence from Imranís mouth is about the will of the people and practicing democratic principles! Also, after consistently accusing Altaf Hussain of murder and even filing a case against him, he has since softened his stance. Why even consider aligning yourself with ďmurderersĒ Mr. Khan? Inconsistent much?

    Imran also loves to attack the character of his political rivals. He advocates personal responsibility and doing the right thing. Of course what Imran forgets to mention is none of that actually applies to him. The Sita White affair is proof of that. Imran conceived an illegitimate child with Sita White, Tyrian, and then denied being the father. He lost a paternity suit in 1997. To me, it is absolutely disgusting that he would run away from his responsibility like that. We all make mistakes and I donít fault Imran for conceiving a child when he didnít intend to. I do, however, fault him for abandoning said child and refusing to own up to his mistake. What moral standing does Imran have to criticize Zardari, Nawaz, or any other politicianís characters when he himself is no paradigm of virtue? Oh by the way, if anyone has the gall to attack him on the Sita White issue, Imran is not above responding with a racist joke (listen from 2:20 onwards). For those that donít understand Urdu, Imran responds to a dark-skinned politicianís claim that Tyrian looks like him (Imran) by saying that if he went to Africa, heís sure to find lots of children that look like the (dark-skinned) politician. Class personified!

    Imranís soft on extremism:
    Firstly, I would say that a lot of what you say above is true. However I am not sure you watched the program in which Imran was accused by Senator Ghauri of being the child of the father. It was the most stupid kind of accusation by holding up a picture and saying "look, the child even looks like you".

    Secondly, nobody ever said Imran was an angel. Even he himself has said that so many times. However he is definitely much much better than the Zardaris, Sharifs, and the Altafs.

  7. #82
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post



    Imran’s a hypocrite:

    Imran’s soft on extremism:

    Imran has consistently been soft on extremist parties in Pakistan, as well as the Taliban. IMO, he only offers lip service about Taliban being evil terrorists. All I ask is that Imran only protest half as much against the act of terrorism that the Taliban commit as he does against the United States. Hey Imran, how about staging a dharna against the Taliban? Just once? Instead, he is willing to pick a gun and join them against the US! Let that sink in for a second. He is willing to join the same guys who routinely blow up innocent children, bomb schools and hospitals, and behead anyone who doesn’t wear a beard. He surrounds himself with extremists like Ejaz Chaudhry and Hamid Gul. He also formed an alliance in the past with one of the most hard-line extremist parties in Pakistan, the Jamat e Islami (until things turned sour later politically and they parted ways). Imran’s solution to ending terrorism is for America to withdraw from the subcontinent and to have “peace talks” with the Taliban. He ignores the fact that the Taliban took advantage of previous peace deals offered to them by Pakistan to regroup and plan even more attacks. And of course the Taliban will leave Pakistan alone if Pakistan leaves them alone. That’s what they want! To be left alone to commit atrocities without anyone stopping them. What Imran needs to understand is that the Taliban are butchers and monsters. We shouldn’t be making peace deals with them, we should be eradicating them.
    It is interesting that you find US occupation in Asia something praiseworthy. Interestingly while you find some things about Imran hypocritical and try to portray yourself as a champion of democracy and freedom and "all that is good in this world", I am quite surprised of your constant support of Imperialism. And you really believe that the occupation of Iraq is about freedom too, right?

    Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube

    Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 2 of 2 - YouTube

    Bill o Reilly finally comes clean that it is about oil.

    Interestingly while the Taliban are accused of killing innocent people what about the 500,000 Iraqi children who died as a consequence of sanctions?

    "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it". (US Secretary of State Madeline Albright on the death of half a million Iraqi children).

    While the attrocities of the Taliban are plain to see in your eyes yet you continue to ignore the drone attacks that keep killing so many civilians. Of course lies in Asia don't matter they are just collateral damage right?
    Last edited by smalishah84; 02-11-2011 at 09:04 PM.

  8. #83
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Firstly, I would say that a lot of what you say above is true. However I am not sure you watched the program in which Imran was accused by Senator Ghauri of being the child of the father. It was the most stupid kind of accusation by holding up a picture and saying "look, the child even looks like you".

    Secondly, nobody ever said Imran was an angel. Even he himself has said that so many times. However he is definitely much much better than the Zardaris, Sharifs, and the Altafs.
    Thanks Smaili for at least acknowledging the merits of my argument. I expected straight denial, so this indeed is a surprise. As for what Ghauri said to Imran, sure it was childish and petty (even if based on truth), but how does that justify Imran responding with that racist joke? Keep in mind that Imran is potentially a future Prime Minister of Pakistan. Is this acceptable for a leader? Also, I don't expect any politician to be an angel, but I will call them out on their hypocrisies when they dwell on other's character flaws.

    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    It is interesting that you find US occupation in Asia something praiseworthy. Interestingly while you find some things about Imran hypocritical and try to portray yourself as a champion of democracy and freedom and "all that is good in this world", I am quite surprised of your constant support of Imperialism. And you really believe that the occupation of Iraq is about freedom too, right?

    Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube

    Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 2 of 2 - YouTube

    Bill o Reilly finally comes clean that it is about oil.

    Interestingly while the Taliban are accused of killing innocent people what about the 500,000 Iraqi children who died as a consequence of sanctions?

    "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it". (US Secretary of State Madeline Albright on the death of half a million Iraqi children).

    While the attrocities of the Taliban are plain to see in your eyes yet you continue to ignore the drone attacks that keep killing so many civilians. Of course lies in Asia don't matter they are just collateral damage right?
    Smali, I have no idea what you are trying to prove with your post above. What does Bill O Reilly getting "owned" by David Letterman has anything to do with Imran (by the way, let me point out that's one American challenging another)? First off, you do realize that I, along with the vast majority of Americans, opposed the war in Iraq right? I fail to see what that has to do with Imran and his dangerous and misguided views on Taliban and terrorism in general. Is your point that it's ok for the Taliban to kill children because the US invasion of Iraq killed children as well? And you are confusing me with Imran with the bit about promoting "all that is good in the world". That's Mr. Khan's domain, not mine. There is no justification for the evil, heinous acts of the Taliban. Period.
    Last edited by Fusion; 02-11-2011 at 09:34 PM.

  9. #84
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    Thanks Smaili for at least acknowledging the merits of my argument. I expected straight denial, so this indeed is a surprise. As for what Ghauri said to Imran, sure it was childish and petty (even if based on truth), but how does that justify Imran responding with that racist joke? Keep in mind that Imran is potentially a future Prime Minister of Pakistan. Is this acceptable for a leader? Also, I don't expect any politician to be an angel, but I will call them out on their hypocrisies when they dwell on other's character flaws.
    I am always happy to prove you wrong Fusion

    So what if Imran is a future potential PM of Pakistan? Imran's joke was only as racist as was Babar Ghauri's. For once Imran gave a reply in kind and people didn't like it. Might appreciate him more for not being our usual type of politician

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    Smali, I have no idea what you are trying to prove with your post above. What does Bill O Reilly getting "owned" by David Letterman has anything to do with Imran (by the way, let me point out that's one American challenging another)? First off, you do realize that I, along with the vast majority of Americans, opposed the war in Iraq right? I fail to see what that has to do with Imran and his dangerous and misguided views on Taliban and terrorism in general. Is your point that it's ok for the Taliban to kill children because the US invasion of Iraq killed children as well? And you are confusing me with Imran with the bit about promoting "all that is good in the world". That's Mr. Khan's domain, not mine. There is no justification for the evil, heinous acts of the Taliban. Period.
    The point of me posting that Bill O' Reilly clip was that even the most hard line of US policy supporters (when absolutely pressed like in the show above) admit that it is about Oil and not about promoting freedom and democracy in the world.

    Secondly I see that the US jumping in to Afghanistan is not in order to right any wrongs. If anything the US govt has committed far more wrongs than possibly any other regime in the 20th century. I want to know if you really believe that the invasion of Afghanistan is about freedom and democracy (they also claimed that about Iraq)? If it is not then why do you support it? Your fundamental issue with Imran's foreign policy seems to be on the Taliban issue while for me the issue has its roots in the US invasion of the country. So lets clear that out first.

  10. #85
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    I am always happy to prove you wrong Fusion

    So what if Imran is a future potential PM of Pakistan? Imran's joke was only as racist as was Babar Ghauri's. For once Imran gave a reply in kind and people didn't like it. Might appreciate him more for not being our usual type of politician
    How is Ghauri holding a picture of Imran's child racist? It may be a petty and childish thing to do, but it's not racist. Imran's "joke" on the other hand, was certainly racist. I don't see anything to appreciate there.


    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    The point of me posting that Bill O' Reilly clip was that even the most hard line of US policy supporters (when absolutely pressed like in the show above) admit that it is about Oil and not about promoting freedom and democracy in the world.
    There has always been an intense divide in the United States about the Iraq war. Initially, roughly half the country supported it and half opposed it. As time passed, the overwhelming majority strongly opposed it. But we're discussing Imran here, and specifically Pakistan and Afghanistan. I still don't see the relevance of the Iraq war in this discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    Secondly I see that the US jumping in to Afghanistan is not in order to right any wrongs. If anything the US govt has committed far more wrongs than possibly any other regime in the 20th century.
    See this is the type of rubbish hyperbole that I associate with Imran and his supporters and why I accuse you specifically of being anti-American. Are you seriously suggesting that the US govt has committed more wrongs in the 20th Century than any other regime? So the US is worse than Nazi Germany, which caused 50 to 70 million fatalities due to WW2? The US is worse than Joseph Stalin's USSR, with its gulags and executions that killed anywhere from 4 to 60 million people? Worse than the Kymer Rouge that killed 3 million? Give me a break Smaili.


    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    I want to know if you really believe that the invasion of Afghanistan is about freedom and democracy (they also claimed that about Iraq)? If it is not then why do you support it? Your fundamental issue with Imran's foreign policy seems to be on the Taliban issue while for me the issue has its roots in the US invasion of the country. So lets clear that out first.
    Afghanistan was all about the removal of Al Qaeda and the Taliban. Of course the US had a perfect right to invade. They were attacked on 9/11 by an organization whose leadership was hiding in Afghanistan. Let's switch roles here. God forbid, if tomorrow there is an attack on Lahore in which 3000 people die and we know for a fact that the attack was planned and originated from Afghanistan, what would you think Pakistan's reaction would be? What would your reaction be? Would you not want action taken? I know I would. The US' goal is not to conquer and rule Afghanistan, but to remove a real threat to the security of its people. They have nearly accomplished that task and will withdraw all troops from Afghanistan by 2014.

    I find it interesting you keep diverting the subject away from Imran to the United States. Why not focus on Imran and his views on the Taliban? Why should we talk peace with these monsters? I find it astonishing that Imran doesn't realize that the Taliban are not interested in peace and living in peace and harmony. They will continue to be a menace to the people and government of Pakistan, with or without the presence of the United States. If Imran continues to act on his naive believes, then I fear for the very existence of Pakistan as we know it today.
    Last edited by Fusion; 02-11-2011 at 10:36 PM.

  11. #86
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Oooohhhh I have a lot to say but since I am at work I'll try to elaborate later. However before I go I must say we always keep returning to the united states because that is what really is the bone of contention between you not liking Imran's policies. I find it strange that while you can see the hypocrisy in Imran you seem to shy away from detecting that in US policies.

    Interesting that the US does not invade other countries whose ideology the talilban were/are following. They should be called monsters of the same ilk as the taliban. Oh wait, as long as the oil is coming in they are not quite monsters are they?

    And yes, the parallel with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan is quite plain to see. Didn't they go in to Iraq looking for Al-Qaeda and WMD as well? Seems like Al-Qaeda is the perfect alibi for invasion. So where is Al-Qaeda is Iraq? Al-Qaeda is used to have air strikes in Yemen.

    Returning to Imran's stance on the Taliban he never said that the military option is completely closed. He only said there is a political solution to this and the military option is always to be used as a last resort. I don't quite understand what is so offensive about having talks with them? What was achieved in the last 10 years of military occupation of Iraq/Afghanistan? Has the world become a more peaceful place to live? If anything peace should be given a chance.
    Last edited by smalishah84; 02-11-2011 at 11:38 PM.

  12. #87
    International Coach G.I.Joe's Avatar
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    Fusion is winning this by so much, it's not funny. Pakistan keeps crowing about how they deserve to be compensated monetarily for 'supporting' the US in the war against terror. Why then is it supposed to be hypocritical for the US to expect some gains for doing the actual fighting?
    Quote Originally Posted by Athlai View Post
    If GI 'Best Poster On The Forum' Joe says it then it must be true.
    Athlai doesn't lie. And he doesn't do sarcasm either, so you know it's true!

  13. #88
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Fusion you have gotten confused about the Taliban just like everyone else. Imran supports Afghan Taliban who are fighting for their country. Before US invasion of Afghanistan these people never took interests in Pakistan and have no intention to. They only want their country. Imran is against the TTP however, who are terrorists because they are blowing up Masjids, markets, etc.

    Yes Imran has made mistakes and he probably is a hypocrite, but who isn't, we are all hypocrites. the important thing is how he behaves from now on. In the last few years his behaviour has been professional.

    Also please let me know who you want to be the prime minister of Pakistan (probably someone who grovels to the US).

    As for GI Joe, this was never Pakistan's war. The US is using our bases, they have caused billions in damage to our roads for the transportation of their supply's using heavy trucks. And we allow them to supply their soldiers in Afghanistan. The compensation that they are giving us whilst meagre, is paying for all these things. So why should they expect us to do more, if they don't want to pay for it. Their war has also caused a negative effect to our economy and Pakistan has lost thousands of civilian and military lives.

    Staying in Afghanistan is also an ideal solution for the US. They can keep an eye on Russia, China, India and Pak.
    Last edited by Agent Nationaux; 03-11-2011 at 08:34 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Yeah, look, it gives me a pain deep inside my uterus to admit it, but it's Ajmal until such time as we get a working throwing law again.
    Never in a million years would I have thought Brumby to admit this!!!!!!

  14. #89
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    How has Imran aligned himself with murderers. Altaf by the way is one of the biggest murderers in Pakistan and should be hanged for his crimes, but the UK government is protecting the bastard.

    Regarding Musharaf, yes he supported him earlier, but that was in his early days, when people thought that he would make a difference. Nawaz deserved to be removed for being the corrupt arsehole that he is. But when Musharaf offered offered Imran the prime minister post, Imran refused.

    That was a sarcastic joke Imran made regarding the racist comments you mentioned. And not admitting to being father of the girl, well yes that was a mistake which he should not have done, but he has accepted her now.

  15. #90
    Cricketer Of The Year Xuhaib's Avatar
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    Fusion,

    i agree with lot of your points and very much believe Imran is not a messiah that many of us would love to believe he has his faults and has made many u-turns throughout his political career and tbh more then his bluntness and straight forwardness this is the thing that has hindered his political career as people never took any of his statements seriously as they knew he would be singing a different tune in the next few days.

    However I am focusing on what he is offering now. Independent judicary, break up of political mafia,proper local governence system permanent solution of the persistent energy problem and less dependence on the US aid. These are the things which are the priority for Pakistan if Imran has a viable solution for all these issues then I am all for giving him a chance.

    Yes his going soft approach on extremest elements is controversial but the reality is these people form an integral part in the Pakistani society and just crushing them and eliminating them will never be a long term solution, I have a feeling Imran at that time was desperate to garner support from somewhere to stay relevent and as more and more mainstream Pakistan has started getting behind him he has started distancing himself from these people. i am all for getting rid of US from our area, belonging to Pakistan's business community I have seen first hand how the business enviornment been effected since US started the Afghan war and sooner the US leave the better it is for our economy.

    As for the Babar Ghauri joke first time I saw it lol.. that was pathetic by imran.
    Last edited by Xuhaib; 03-11-2011 at 10:06 AM.

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