The Official Pakistan Politics thread

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

You're deluded if you think whatever replaces doesnt have exactly the same dysfunction. You think if a population and a culture is steeped in cronyism and corruption, that a dictatorship will be any less corrupt than a democratic government? No. The vast majority of the apparatus remains unchanged. And in the cases where it doesn't, its simply replaced with an equally corrupt but now a less transparent and a less accountable version of the previous one. You just won't hear about the corruptions anymore because there is no democracy.

That is such a stupid statement and the whole paragraph reeks of ignorance of somebody who has no clue of the functioning of the Pakistani system (which you think is democracy).

So Mr Einstein answer me, is it a coincidence that the govts of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif has seen Pakistan always climbing the corruption index ranking? Is it a coincidence that the media ONLY became free in Pakistan AFTER General Musharraf took over and did away with the laws that chained the media in Pakistan all throughout the decade of the 90s? Why is it that despite having ruled the country for almost 10 years Musharraf is accused of a lot of things but looting and plundering is not one of the charges usually brought against him? If a form of govt other than democracy is less transparent then why was the media completely chained during the Bhutto and Sharif regimes in the 90s that they couldn't report anything against the govt while under General Musharraf the media could report openly?

[silentstriker]

Holy crap. Way to miss my point completely.

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by silentstriker

Holy crap. Way to miss my point completely.

Welcome to the club. Trust me, it's good to be a member.

[Fusion]

Opposition parties united against ‘conspiracies to derail democracy’

Good on Nawaz Sharif and the other opposition parties to do this. I think they’re smart enough to realize that the recent developments are a ploy to stage a coup of some sort. FYI – for those that don’t know, Saint Imran is not part of the opposition as he boycotted the last general elections. As I said before though, Imran has smartly refused to back Qadri so at least on this point he’s united with the “official” opposition.

[Agent Nationaux]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

That is such a stupid statement and the whole paragraph reeks of ignorance of somebody who has no clue of the functioning of the Pakistani system (which you think is democracy).

So Mr Einstein answer me, is it a coincidence that the govts of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif has seen Pakistan always climbing the corruption index ranking? Is it a coincidence that the media ONLY became free in Pakistan AFTER General Musharraf took over and did away with the laws that chained the media in Pakistan all throughout the decade of the 90s? Why is it that despite having ruled the country for almost 10 years Musharraf is accused of a lot of things but looting and plundering is not one of the charges usually brought against him? If a form of govt other than democracy is less transparent then why was the media completely chained during the Bhutto and Sharif regimes in the 90s that they couldn't report anything against the govt while under General Musharraf the media could report openly?

You just confirmed what SS just said.

[Cevno]

No corruption allegations against Taliban when controlling Afghanistan too.

[Agent Nationaux]

And I have never heard of a good benevolent dictator.

Even in Islam's history there have been forms of democracy. The Prophet himself chosen and accepted by the Ummah. The first 4 Caliphs elected by a council chosen amongst the companions of the Prophet and accepted by the Ummah.

[Agent Nationaux]

"Charity starts at home". Imran won't end corruption as he has claimed. It's Pakistani society that has to work towards ending corruption. And this has to start at the grass roots.

[silentstriker]

Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux

"Charity starts at home". Imran won't end corruption as he has claimed. It's Pakistani society that has to work towards ending corruption. And this has to start at the grass roots.

Yea. It's about a cultural change not some savior at the top. Politicians and police will take bribes as long as people give them - and accept that it is a way to get things done.

I've seen people in India cry foul against corruption but in the same day give a small couple hundred rupee bribe to get something a little quicker or get out of an inspection or whatever. There is no magic bullet. You can't have a healthy society without a healthy society. I do it too - take shortcuts that I wouldn't want all of society to adopt. We all do. But that's a problem that has to be solved at something other than the ballot box.

As the saying goes, be the change you wish to see in the world.... Very hard to live up to for all of us because its much easier to blame external factors rather than internal ones.

[Cevno]

I disagree on that count to a large degree. Pretty sure i've had that argument before with SS along with someone else so don't want to repeat it but working systems are very important too. To say that no one should be blamed who has power but everyone should look inwards is too simplistic a argument and frankly will sort out nothing as it's a vicious cycle and has to be broken bit by bit from one end. And it can only be done from the top first before it starts from the bottom.

[silentstriker]

You can certainly try and good luck with that. You can attack it from all levels but in the end, and you should but, I liken it to a drug war. As long as the demand exists, people will find a way to supply it no matter the law. As long as people are willing to pay for favors, or to get away with something, or to get ahead in line, you're going to find people willing to exchange it for money.

[Cevno]

Drugs is not a valid comparison, as people aren't forced to take drugs as they are forced to give bribes to just fulfill their requirements in many occasions.For example police many a times won't register a complaint for a car theft in some parts without taking a bribe, especially when it involves a insurance payoff ?

What you gonna do about it ? Shut up and not pay it or spend more money in approaching the courts which will take a while in itself before a order is obtained to register a complaint. About which time the car will have been dismantled and sold of in parts already, and the insurance company won't pay you as it violated the terms and conditions in the contract.

Can give umpteen more examples too. Both more and less heinous that this as i did before. But the point remains the same. Also, you are forgetting power without adequate checks and balances corrupts the best even. I don't care how honest anyone is/or pretends to be otherwise once you have been co-opted by the system then you won't let others change it either.

[Cevno]

The Official Indian Politics Thread

That is true to some extent, but 3 situations -

You have just had someone burgle you, and the police refuse to register a FIR without a bribe immediately. What you do?

You are in the Bureaucracy and struggling to pay the bills, house installment etc.. and then you see 2 of your colleagues engaging in corruption, getting and getting away with it.what you do?

You are contesting a election for a Member of Parliament seat, your opponent is spending 20 crores putting hoarding everywhere and getting maximum exposure to a largely uninformed huge electorate. He plans to make this money back and more when he gets elected through corruption and you know that if you don't do that, you won't get elected. The pressure to do the same will be huge, won't it?

Corruption is almost like a cycle and just leaving it to the Citizens as a whole waking up one day and deciding we won't engage in corruption is not possible, because as they say power and system corrupts and you have to corrupt first on most occasions to attempt to change the system too.

There will be rotten apples everywhere but what needs to be ensured is that they don't spoil the bunch. Thus, there needs to be a institutionalized system with enough friction between all the parties(and not complicity) to ensure that that at least it is tough for this rotten apple to affect others and also to get away, if not be singled out and eradicated early. There is a will against corruption in almost all the population, but the problem is that there is not such a culture collectively.And, This culture needs to be created through checks in the system in which we live and then the will to fight can kick in(at least in terms of others) and the cycle of corruption dented to some extent with both the punisher being under pressure to punish as well as the bribe givers/takers not being benefiting.

I agree, ideally this change would be bottom up in direction, but that is not possible in the current environment we live in and nigh on impossible in a country as large and diverse as India. So it has to start at the top and then trickle down to the bottom, with many efforts to affect as much change that is possible from the bottom - upwards too.

[Agent Nationaux]

Ideally you want change from both top down and bottom up. The society must want corruption to be eliminated as well as people at the top working to get rid of it. However at the moment in Pakistan, people are happy to not pay taxes or pay for the electricity they use, which means less government expenditure on police and other services and thus things like bribery come into effect. Also at the same time politicians with the same thinking as the population consider it their right to steal money after spending so much on getting appointed. It's like an investment for them. Spend x amount to get appointed and then recoup the amount plus extra whilst in power through corruption.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Agent Nationaux

You just confirmed what SS just said.

Before logging off last night I wanted to post that AN please don't come in here and post some stupid **** but thought I'll post it tomorrow. Maybe I should have done that

Can you please explain how did I just confirm what SS said?

Originally Posted by Cevno

No corruption allegations against Taliban when controlling Afghanistan too.