The Official Pakistan Politics thread

[Faisal1985]

Originally Posted by smalishah84

Meanwhile that loser party in Karachi called the MQM took out a rally in support of Zardari

ALTAF Hussain singing songs (BURQE ME REHNE DO) [9th september] Pure HD Quality - YouTube


LMAO!!!! I can feel for the poor people who had to go through this sitting and watching.....

I just don't know who the heck votes for MQM after looking at this...

[Faisal1985]

Originally Posted by Cevno

Not sure about Imran's policy of removing the military option and having a political solution through Dialogue with the terrorists tbh.

It may be good political posturing as the mood in Pakistan right now ought to be Anti - West generally, but also not sure how feasible distancing Pakistan from the US in terms of fighting the taliban, not taking aid etc.... would be.

Also then there is the question of how much power actually a civilian government can wield in Pakistan with the Military and the ISI etc.. always keen to play a political role and being quite powerful. Some of the domestic changes he has proposed are good theoretically, but he would need absolute power of the state to enforce them because the implementation part is the major issue on South Asia right now in every country, not lack of thinking or what is on paper or the statutes.

Its not only Imran saying that...recent news has shown that Hillary admitted that ISI helped them talk to some of the strongest wings of the Taliban and again now Hillary wants a dialogue with Taliban...

Imran has an issue with the double game of U.S. When Pak tried to do a dialogue on its own with the Taliban to end the suicide bombings in Pakistan, U.S. establishment was all over Pakistan for doing that where as they are constantly making efforts to have Taliban lay down arms via dialogue and join the Karzai government. Imran is rightly against this type of double attitude of the U.S.

Moreover, he is not talking Anti-West at all, he is talking about equality. He said in his speech that we will be friends with the U.S. but on basis of equality and mutual respect.

He is also seriously against the drone attacks in Pakistan which come with a great number of collateral in terms of innocent lives. Almost over 150 children have been killed because of these strikes.

According to Imran, if Pakistan can tighten the loose ends in collecting tax and make sure that tax revenues are properly collected and accounted for, Pakistan's requirement for foreign aid will significantly drop and Pak will actually be able to pay back the principle amounts on its debts.

Moreover, according to him our power plants currently are only operating at 25 - 30 % of their capacity in Wapda, If he can only get them to run at 70% the load shedding and power outages would be cut down significantly as well.

Whether his theories and strategies are correct or as accurate or not, at least the man is talking about issues that matter for the general public.

He is big on accountability and independent judiciary as well as independent police force.

He also said that he would implement the American system of how they elect their sheriff in Pakistan to elect the Police head.

He is talking sense which no one has ever talked about since Bhutto...he is at least listing out real issues....that is enough for me to vote PTI...

[Faisal1985]

Originally Posted by Fusion

As promised, let me present a case against The Messiah, err I mean Imran Khan. I warn you, this will be a long read. I also fully expect this thread to blow up in outrage over my remarks and for me to be labeled as a tool for corrupt politicians like Zardari/Nawaz/Altaf. So be it. I’m going to start with listing a few things I like about Imran. First and foremost, he’s my favorite cricket player of all-time and the reason I started watching the sport. That’s not really relevant to this thread though (but I do wonder how many of his supporters mix their feelings for the cricket player with the politician). I believe Imran is probably the least corrupt of all Pakistani politicians. I don’t think he can ever be bought, which is an admirable thing. I also greatly admire his efforts in building the cancer hospital for the poor, which is probably his life’s greatest achievement. See there? I can see the good in him. Unfortunately, I also see the bad.

Imran’s a hypocrite:

This supposed champion of democracy and people’s power actually has a terrible record in supporting democracy itself. He had a very friendly relationship with arguably the worst dictator in Pakistan’s history, Zia Ul Haq. But that was prior to his entry into politics and one can argue he was merely indulging the head of state. However, nothing can justify this democratic champion’s support of General Musharraf in 1999. That’s right folks; Imran supported the military coup that overthrew Nawaz Sharif. Now there is no doubt that Sharif was corrupt and incompetent, and was pushing Pakistan to tilt even more towards a religious hard line. Be that as it may, he was the democratically elected Prime Minister of the country. If Imran didn’t like his policies (and 90% of the country didn’t), he should’ve led a campaign to defeat him at the polls. Instead, he supported the military in toppling democracy. If a politician in any other country where democracy is practiced had done the same thing as Imran, his legitimacy to govern would forever be tarnished. In Pakistan, Imran is treated like the savior of democracy, and today every other sentence from Imran’s mouth is about the will of the people and practicing democratic principles! Also, after consistently accusing Altaf Hussain of murder and even filing a case against him, he has since softened his stance. Why even consider aligning yourself with “murderers” Mr. Khan? Inconsistent much?

Imran also loves to attack the character of his political rivals. He advocates personal responsibility and doing the right thing. Of course what Imran forgets to mention is none of that actually applies to him. The Sita White affair is proof of that. Imran conceived an illegitimate child with Sita White, Tyrian, and then denied being the father. He lost a paternity suit in 1997. To me, it is absolutely disgusting that he would run away from his responsibility like that. We all make mistakes and I don’t fault Imran for conceiving a child when he didn’t intend to. I do, however, fault him for abandoning said child and refusing to own up to his mistake. What moral standing does Imran have to criticize Zardari, Nawaz, or any other politician’s characters when he himself is no paradigm of virtue? Oh by the way, if anyone has the gall to attack him on the Sita White issue, Imran is not above responding with a racist joke (listen from 2:20 onwards). For those that don’t understand Urdu, Imran responds to a dark-skinned politician’s claim that Tyrian looks like him (Imran) by saying that if he went to Africa, he’s sure to find lots of children that look like the (dark-skinned) politician. Class personified!

Imran’s soft on extremism:

Imran has consistently been soft on extremist parties in Pakistan, as well as the Taliban. IMO, he only offers lip service about Taliban being evil terrorists. All I ask is that Imran only protest half as much against the act of terrorism that the Taliban commit as he does against the United States. Hey Imran, how about staging a dharna against the Taliban? Just once? Instead, he is willing to pick a gun and join them against the US! Let that sink in for a second. He is willing to join the same guys who routinely blow up innocent children, bomb schools and hospitals, and behead anyone who doesn’t wear a beard. He surrounds himself with extremists like Ejaz Chaudhry and Hamid Gul. He also formed an alliance in the past with one of the most hard-line extremist parties in Pakistan, the Jamat e Islami (until things turned sour later politically and they parted ways). Imran’s solution to ending terrorism is for America to withdraw from the subcontinent and to have “peace talks” with the Taliban. He ignores the fact that the Taliban took advantage of previous peace deals offered to them by Pakistan to regroup and plan even more attacks. And of course the Taliban will leave Pakistan alone if Pakistan leaves them alone. That’s what they want! To be left alone to commit atrocities without anyone stopping them. What Imran needs to understand is that the Taliban are butchers and monsters. We shouldn’t be making peace deals with them, we should be eradicating them.

But don't you think Imran is lesser of the evils we have currently in our politics/government?


The Sita White case that you said he lost, was that on the basis of DNA testing which proved Imran to be the father? (just curious I am not fully aware of the case)..

[Fusion]

Originally Posted by Sanz

Agree with every word stated above. The question I want to ask you is :- Is Imran the best person to lead Pakistan among the available choices you have at the moment ?

If not then who ?

Not sure if you are asking me that question or the general public. My response is that Imran is superior in many respects to the choices we have – he’s not corrupt, he’s obviously intelligent, and I think he actually cares for Pakistan. Sadly, I can’t think of many other politicians in Pakistan that possess these same qualities. However he fails in crucial areas which prevent me from supporting him. As long as he’s soft on terrorism and associates himself with extremists, I can’t support him. I would grudgingly support a Zardari before Imran. While he may be looting the country’s coffers, at least Zardari’s party is secular and willing to take on the Taliban. Sure, they may be doing it to appease the Americans and not because it’s the right thing to do, but since it is the right thing to do (IMO of course), I’m just happy it’s getting done.

Originally Posted by Faisal1985

But don't you think Imran is lesser of the evils we have currently in our politics/government?

See my response to Sanz above.

Originally Posted by Faisal1985

The Sita White case that you said he lost, was that on the basis of DNA testing which proved Imran to be the father? (just curious I am not fully aware of the case)..

No, he lost the case by default when he didn't show up to contest it. It was obvious why he didn't though - she is his daughter and he has quietly acknowledged this now since Sita White passed away.

[Sanz]

Originally Posted by Fusion

Not sure if you are asking me that question or the general public. My response is that Imran is superior in many respects to the choices we have – he’s not corrupt, he’s obviously intelligent, and I think he actually cares for Pakistan. Sadly, I can’t think of many other politicians in Pakistan that possess these same qualities. However he fails in crucial areas which prevent me from supporting him. As long as he’s soft on terrorism and associates himself with extremists, I can’t support him. I would grudgingly support a Zardari before Imran. While he may be looting the country’s coffers, at least Zardari’s party is secular and willing to take on the Taliban. Sure, they may be doing it to appease the Americans and not because it’s the right thing to do, but since it is the right thing to do (IMO of course), I’m just happy it’s getting done.

Thanks for the response. I think I disagree with you on your choice of Zardari over Imran as Pakistan's leader. I do not believe Imran or Imran's party are non-secular. The government of Pakistan alone can not fight the Taliban without the help of Pakistani people. And the current government does not have that respect. I do not believe he is pro Taliban or that he supports terrorists.

I am not an apologist for Taliban: Imran Khan - YouTube

I somewhat agree with him on what he says above.

[Faisal1985]

Originally Posted by Fusion

See my response to Sanz above.



No, he lost the case by default when he didn't show up to contest it. It was obvious why he didn't though - she is his daughter and he has quietly acknowledged this now since Sita White passed away.

Come on Fusion! Zardari over Imran.....let me bribe you on that one...

So he is the actual father....i see...well **** happens i guess...but Monica also happened to Clinton..so whats the big deal...but I agree he should have been man enough to admit to his mistakes..

[Xuhaib]

Imran is of the very few politicians who openly condemned the killing of Salman Taseer, he is one of the very few who has made a formal plan for the minorities if he comes to power. Imran opposes drone attacks because he has seen first hand how these drone attacks kill lot more civilians then these terrorist. Imran does not wish to go soft on these elements he just wants to bring them to table he feels millitary action is the last resort and we are making the same mistake as we made in Bangladesh or what Musharraf did in Baluchistan no harm in trying out his option since the first options has already yeilded very few results. Just because he does not sit at the feet of US & co like Zardari that does not make him a Taliban sympathizer.

[Faisal1985]

Originally Posted by Xuhaib

Imran is of the very few politicians who openly condemned the killing of Salman Taseer, he is one of the very few who has made a formal plan for the minorities if he comes to power. Imran opposes drone attacks because he has seen first hand how these drone attacks kill lot more civilians then these terrorist. Imran does not wish to go soft on these elements he just wants to bring them to table he feels millitary action is the last resort and we are making the same mistake as we made in Bangladesh or what Musharraf did in Baluchistan no harm in trying out his option since the first options has already yeilded very few results. Just because he does not sit at the feet of US & co like Zardari that does not make him a Taliban sympathizer.

And..he wants to bring Baluchistan into the mainstream politics where they will actually matter....

I personally think Fusion's opinion is misplaced in saying that his policies are dangerous....His policies are different for sure and I think it was time we reviewed our policies after such chaos in Pakistan...we are ahead of only 3 countries in the most poorest nations now...what could be worse than that...

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Faisal1985

Come on Fusion! Zardari over Imran.....let me bribe you on that one...

So he is the actual father....i see...well **** happens i guess...but Monica also happened to Clinton..so whats the big deal...but I agree he should have been man enough to admit to his mistakes..

awta

Originally Posted by Xuhaib

Imran is of the very few politicians who openly condemned the killing of Salman Taseer, he is one of the very few who has made a formal plan for the minorities if he comes to power. Imran opposes drone attacks because he has seen first hand how these drone attacks kill lot more civilians then these terrorist. Imran does not wish to go soft on these elements he just wants to bring them to table he feels millitary action is the last resort and we are making the same mistake as we made in Bangladesh or what Musharraf did in Baluchistan no harm in trying out his option since the first options has already yeilded very few results. Just because he does not sit at the feet of US & co like Zardari that does not make him a Taliban sympathizer.

awta

Originally Posted by Faisal1985

I personally think Fusion's opinion is misplaced in saying that his policies are dangerous....His policies are different for sure and I think it was time we reviewed our policies after such chaos in Pakistan...we are ahead of only 3 countries in the most poorest nations now...what could be worse than that...

I so agree with this.

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by Faisal1985

Its not only Imran saying that...recent news has shown that Hillary admitted that ISI helped them talk to some of the strongest wings of the Taliban and again now Hillary wants a dialogue with Taliban...

Imran has an issue with the double game of U.S. When Pak tried to do a dialogue on its own with the Taliban to end the suicide bombings in Pakistan, U.S. establishment was all over Pakistan for doing that where as they are constantly making efforts to have Taliban lay down arms via dialogue and join the Karzai government. Imran is rightly against this type of double attitude of the U.S.

Moreover, he is not talking Anti-West at all, he is talking about equality. He said in his speech that we will be friends with the U.S. but on basis of equality and mutual respect.

He is also seriously against the drone attacks in Pakistan which come with a great number of collateral in terms of innocent lives. Almost over 150 children have been killed because of these strikes.

According to Imran, if Pakistan can tighten the loose ends in collecting tax and make sure that tax revenues are properly collected and accounted for, Pakistan's requirement for foreign aid will significantly drop and Pak will actually be able to pay back the principle amounts on its debts.

Moreover, according to him our power plants currently are only operating at 25 - 30 % of their capacity in Wapda, If he can only get them to run at 70% the load shedding and power outages would be cut down significantly as well.

Whether his theories and strategies are correct or as accurate or not, at least the man is talking about issues that matter for the general public.

He is big on accountability and independent judiciary as well as independent police force.

He also said that he would implement the American system of how they elect their sheriff in Pakistan to elect the Police head.

He is talking sense which no one has ever talked about since Bhutto...he is at least listing out real issues....that is enough for me to vote PTI...

Agree with most of what you have said.

Originally Posted by Fusion

Not sure if you are asking me that question or the general public. My response is that Imran is superior in many respects to the choices we have – he’s not corrupt, he’s obviously intelligent, and I think he actually cares for Pakistan. Sadly, I can’t think of many other politicians in Pakistan that possess these same qualities. However he fails in crucial areas which prevent me from supporting him. As long as he’s soft on terrorism and associates himself with extremists, I can’t support him. I would grudgingly support a Zardari before Imran. While he may be looting the country’s coffers, at least Zardari’s party is secular and willing to take on the Taliban. Sure, they may be doing it to appease the Americans and not because it’s the right thing to do, but since it is the right thing to do (IMO of course), I’m just happy it’s getting done.

Ouch. Fusion, how much do you want people to really suffer? For a party that has been in power thrice and every stint is worse than the last why not have some change.

I know you have made it clear by saying that you believe looting the country by the Billions is less of an evil than trying to work out a political solution with the Taliban but I find it so difficult to believe. Maybe the fact that you have been living outside of Pakistan for a long time has made you forget how bad it can get on the ground when the govt just stops doing its job let alone caring for the people.

As Faisal pointed out Imran is the only one who actually talks of issues which actually affect the people. Nobody even talks of these things.

[salman85]

Just noted the 'Imran has gone soft on the Army and MQM' off late,and the ever present criticism of his support for the Musharraf coup.

Let's just get one thing straight here : Imran was a novice when he supported Musharraf.That was a mistake.Also,for those who did not know,when Jamali was ousted as the PM,Imran was offered the post but he rejected it.Holding Imran's support for Musharraf against him is naive,since he later went on to become one of his strongest critics.Imran has clarified his stance on the coup many times.

Coming to MQM,Imran knows that you cannot be successful in Pakistani Politics if you go slamming people left right and center.Also,he would need support in Karachi if he ever comes into Power.Also,being the ISI's blue eyed boy is imperative for anyone who comes into Power,and Imran is doing all of that now.He may not like the ISI,he may not like MQM,but he realizes he needs to have a working relationship with them to come into power,and that is what he's doing.It's not called selling out,it's called playing your cards well,and that is something Imran has learned now.

[salman85]

PS.My friends told me there was some PTI rally or something in Karachi 2 days back.Apparently they stormed Zamzama among other areas.

[smalishah84]

stormed meaning? I hope they didn't vandalize?

[smalishah84]

Originally Posted by salman85

Just noted the 'Imran has gone soft on the Army and MQM' off late,and the ever present criticism of his support for the Musharraf coup.

Let's just get one thing straight here : Imran was a novice when he supported Musharraf.That was a mistake.Also,for those who did not know,when Jamali was ousted as the PM,Imran was offered the post but he rejected it.Holding Imran's support for Musharraf against him is naive,since he later went on to become one of his strongest critics.Imran has clarified his stance on the coup many times.

Coming to MQM,Imran knows that you cannot be successful in Pakistani Politics if you go slamming people left right and center.Also,he would need support in Karachi if he ever comes into Power.Also,being the ISI's blue eyed boy is imperative for anyone who comes into Power,and Imran is doing all of that now.He may not like the ISI,he may not like MQM,but he realizes he needs to have a working relationship with them to come into power,and that is what he's doing.It's not called selling out,it's called playing your cards well,and that is something Imran has learned now.

btw what is this news of ISI supporting Imran. Any credible source for it other than the PML mouth pieces

[Agent Nationaux]

Fusion did ask of Imran's soft stance towards MQM after him going for Altaf in the UK. Well Fusion, Imran received death threats by the MQM, and was probably advised that it wasn't worth his life to waste time on Altaf, especially since the British government would not prosecute him.