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Thread: Dubai's Migrant Workers

  1. #76
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentstriker View Post
    I don't understand this debate: if a person wants to leave but cannot, that's a violation of his basic human rights. Simple as. If his employers are not paying him legal wages specifically to make sure they never get out of debt (especially if the debt is relatively small, like for a ticket) that's indentured servitude at best, slavery at worst - both of which are violations of their basic human rights. If a private entity can force you to stay somewhere against your will, that's slavery. Only governments should have the power to do that, and then only under just cause.

    Reminds me of this song: a day older and deeper in debt...I owe my soul to the company store. It used to be that in the US, a coal mining company would hire you and give you shelter and have a company store where you'd buy food and other materials. But they'd give you a salary that's deliberately smaller than they would charge in rent and food. So every day you worked, you'd actually get more and more in debt.

    Debt bondage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    I don't like making social issues black and white but it's about being pro slavery or anti slavery. It's pretty much that simple.

    And obviously it's not just Dubai.
    SS I know that you would find it hard to follow this debate because in a way it just follows from an earlier debate that I had with Fusion.

    The point is that Strictly following the principles of realpolitik I don't think anybody would have any qualms about using slavery to further their means.

    Then there are humanists who will have some very different considerations.

    My only problem is that people will use one set of principles to look at the world at one time and then use other principles at another to show something in a particular light. Now you can't have it both ways. Either you use realpolitik consistently or use humanism. Be consistent about it. You can't have it both ways.
    And smalishah's avatar is the most classy one by far Jan certainly echoes the sentiments of CW

    Yeah we don't crap in the first world; most of us would actually have no idea what that was emanating from Ajmal's backside. Why isn't it roses and rainbows like what happens here? PEWS's retort to Ganeshran on Daemon's picture depicting Ajmal's excreta

  2. #77
    Hall of Fame Member Sanz's Avatar
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    This debate has nothing to do with politics.

  3. #78
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    Sigh. I'm going to explain this to you one last time (yeah I said that the last time, but beating my head against the wall once more can't do any more damage than it already has). Your analogy of the UAE employers doing the same thing as the US government is appallingly absurd and reeks of your anti-American sentiments. You seem to think all the blame lies with the contracting agencies that bring the workers to the UAE. The employers know that the agencies are mistreating the workers in the worst possible ways, and look the other way. In fact, they actually encourage the abuse because they get cheap labor out of it. You also love to ignore the part of the UAE government in all this. This abuse is taking place in UAE. The government should be protecting the basic human rights of these workers, no matter where they came from. Instead of doing that, they punish any workers that try to protest the abuse or leave the country. None of these despicable actions compare with the US government's aid to Pakistan. Is the US government actively encouraging the corrupt Pakistani government/politicians to squander the aid? Are they happy that the aid is being put to waste? The waste of that aid is hurting the US as much as the people of Pakistan as the US gets no goodwill from it since the Pakistani public does not see any tangible benefits. So the US gives billions to Pakistan (strings or no strings, billions is still billions) and gets no recognition for it. All of this in no way compares to the UAE government/employers who get benefits from the abuse of those workers. Like I said, your absurd comparison of the two is nothing more than your anti-Americanism speaking.
    .
    Aaaggghhh.......facepalm.jpg

    Edit @ the part in bold I must say that the Mir Jafars and the Mir Sadiqs are alive and well in spirit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    When you defend and justify these evil practices of the UAE and still find a way to somehow bash America, I'm going to state that you are rabidly anti-American. And the choice in this debate isn't "with us or against us"; the choice is "are you against slavery/torture/murder, or for it?" I know how most human beings would answer that question, but not sure about you.
    lol @ me bashing America. Dude all I am trying to show you is your bias. I am using the Socratic method in a way.

    aaaggghhh.....As usual you missed the point. Of course the choice is not "either you're with us or you're against us". I only pointed it out to say that if somebody thinks that the US is doing certain things wrong and somebody points it out doesn't mean that they are against the US. So I was requesting you to get out of this mentality. Lighten up dude even a lot of Americans think that the US has done a lot of crazy things in the last 10 years. You are not responsible for every thing that the US govt does so just accept some of the things that have gone wrong. To make the point on a lighter note you might want to switch away from Fox News and watch this

    Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 1 of 2 - YouTube

    Bill O'Reilly Gets Owned By David Letterman - Part 2 of 2 - YouTube

    Also I would recommend you to read Noam Chomsky. It might help you to refine your views further

  4. #79
    Global Moderator Fusion's Avatar
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    Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves'

    Another day, another Arab country exploiting and enslaving the poor for their benefit.


  5. #80
    Global Moderator Prince EWS's Avatar
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    Social, how on earth can you claim it's not actually a state/government issue and then say this?:

    Quote Originally Posted by social View Post
    BTW, workers in the UAE need to be sponsored by a local entity to obtain a visa.

    The sponsor then becomes responsible for all actions of the employee including debts and crimes.
    That is absolutely horrible legislation and the crux of the whole issue. The state may not actively enforce this situation but they certain foster it with silly private accountability laws like that one. You should absolutely not be entitled to detain a law-abiding citizen based on their level of debt, particularly if you're a private entity.

    Quote Originally Posted by social View Post
    As such, those at the lower levels have their passports retained by the sponsor to ensure that they dont skip out on their obligations leaving the sponsor to foot the bill
    This sounds all well and good when the system isn't rigged to make sure they're always accumulating more debt than they're earning.
    ~ Cribbertarian ~

    Rejecting 'analysis by checklist' and 'skill absolutism' since Dec '09

    Quote Originally Posted by John Singleton
    Recognition of Property Rights in material objects is the recognition of a manís right to exist; his right to pursue his own goals in his own manner at his own discretion with what is rightfully his to command. Just as the Right to Life is the right to the property of oneís own person, so the right to own material products is the right to sustain oneís life and to keep the results of oneís own efforts.


  6. #81
    Eternal Optimist / Cricket Web Staff Member GIMH's Avatar
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    You're arguing with posts from two years ago lid.

    I for one was disappointed to learn that this wasn't a parody thread of 'England's Foreigners'

  7. #82
    Cricketer Of The Year Agent Nationaux's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves'

    Another day, another Arab country exploiting and enslaving the poor for their benefit.
    Yeah read about this in the paper. It's sick that they exploit people like this.
    Quote Originally Posted by BoyBrumby View Post
    Yeah, look, it gives me a pain deep inside my uterus to admit it, but it's Ajmal until such time as we get a working throwing law again.
    Never in a million years would I have thought Brumby to admit this!!!!!!

  8. #83
    International Captain Maximas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fusion View Post
    Revealed: Qatar's World Cup 'slaves'

    Another day, another Arab country exploiting and enslaving the poor for their benefit.
    There were so many things wrong with the fact that Qatar won the WC bid
    There are two colours in my head

    Sugarealm

  9. #84
    Hall of Fame Member Goughy's Avatar
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    I won't discuss the Guardian article because I have some issues with it.

    I thought I'd list the 2013 US State Dept TIP report placements -- see link. Tier 1 is where countries should want to be. Countries with Tier 2 WL and below are a serious concern. It doesn't just look at the existence of trafficking (as that happens in every country) but the prevalence, the laws to prosecute offenders and the protections in places for victims. Qatar, using the example of the article, is Tier 2. It is clear that exploitation takes place but Qatar has some serious penalties for those who illegally recruit and traffic.

    A quick look and apparently the only Tier 3 Test nation appears to be Zimbabwe. There are narratives for each country if you explore the site that detail the exact situation in each country (inc. US.)

    Trafficking in Persons Report 2013: Tier Placements

    THE TIERS

    TIER 1

    Countries whose governments fully comply with the Trafficking Victims Protection Act’s (TVPA) minimum standards.

    TIER 2

    Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the TVPA’s minimum standards, but are making significant efforts to bring themselves into compliance with those standards.

    TIER 2 WATCH LIST

    Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the TVPA’s minimum standards, but are making significant efforts to bring themselves into compliance with those standards AND:

    a) The absolute number of victims of severe forms of trafficking is very significant or is significantly increasing;

    b) There is a failure to provide evidence of increasing efforts to combat severe forms of trafficking in persons from the previous year; or

    c) The determination that a country is making significant efforts to bring itself into compliance with minimum standards was based on commitments by the country to take additional future steps over the next year.

    TIER 3

    Countries whose governments do not fully comply with the minimum standards and are not making significant efforts to do so.
    If I only just posted the above post, please wait 5 mins before replying as there is bound to be edits

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  10. #85
    International Coach social's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prince EWS View Post
    Social, how on earth can you claim it's not actually a state/government issue and then say this?:



    That is absolutely horrible legislation and the crux of the whole issue. The state may not actively enforce this situation but they certain foster it with silly private accountability laws like that one. You should absolutely not be entitled to detain a law-abiding citizen based on their level of debt, particularly if you're a private entity.



    This sounds all well and good when the system isn't rigged to make sure they're always accumulating more debt than they're earning.
    To put things into perspective, the UAE has only been a country since 1971 and was little more than a collection of villages until say 1990

    Until 1971, it had been a tribal society for 600 years with the "law" being determined by the leader on a case-by-case basis in a majlis (i.e. basically a meeting of the tribe presided over by a sheikh)

    Current laws are based on the English system and are literally being introduced on the run as problems arise

    The employment law is very strict and decisions are made AGAINST UAE nationals every single day of the week

    Enforceability is an issue but they are getting there

    BTW, how is the system "rigged to make sure they're always accumulating more debt than they're earning?"

    Most employees have everything paid for them (e.g. rent, food, health insurance, etc)

    If they then go out and spend more than they are being paid, it is hardly the employer's fault

  11. #86
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by social View Post
    To put things into perspective, the UAE has only been a country since 1971 and was little more than a collection of villages until say 1990

    Until 1971, it had been a tribal society for 600 years with the "law" being determined by the leader on a case-by-case basis in a majlis (i.e. basically a meeting of the tribe presided over by a sheikh)

    Current laws are based on the English system and are literally being introduced on the run as problems arise

    The employment law is very strict and decisions are made AGAINST UAE nationals every single day of the week
    I agree with a lot of what you say but I am not really aware of the part in bold. Are you sure about this? The stories on the streets always portray this issue completely opposite to what you are saying. Having said that I am not very familiar with the legal system in the UAE. For such a new country the systems run ok so (at least much better than the rest of the arab world or pakistan or even the SC I would venture since so many SC ppl end up there) so I didn't think of much else.

  12. #87
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smalishah84 View Post
    I agree with a lot of what you say but I am not really aware of the part in bold. Are you sure about this? The stories on the streets always portray this issue completely opposite to what you are saying. Having said that I am not very familiar with the legal system in the UAE. For such a new country the systems run ok so (at least much better than the rest of the arab world or pakistan or even the SC I would venture since so many SC ppl end up there) so I didn't think of much else.
    So many people from the sub-continent moving to UAE has everything to do with labour being able to earn more in absolute terms and nada with how well the 'systems' run in the country.
    Last edited by Teja.; 04-10-2013 at 03:29 AM.
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  13. #88
    Cricket Web: All-Time Legend smalishah84's Avatar
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    your point is valid........however I wanted to convey the point that talking to a lot of the migrant workers I got that feeling that one of the things that Dubai had going for itself that at least the system was somewhat functional and wasn't so corrupt for everyday living

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