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Thread: Hate Crimes

  1. #31
    Global Moderator Teja.'s Avatar
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    Yeah, It's true that females are on a general level more helpless to defend themselves but it's still on a general level, IMO. It should be a case by case thing.

    However, I'd still think a court would punish the bloke who murdered the female worse than the bloke who murdered the male even if in a hypothetical it was proven that in both cases they were equally helpless to defend themselves due to all the societal immorality surrounding violence towards women. Especially in India. I also think that is ****ing dire.
    Last edited by Teja.; 12-06-2011 at 08:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    Or from a perspective more grounded in moral theory, acts of violence at girls tend to invoke stronger emotional reactions in friends, relatives and the general public. So it's likely to cause more overall harm than an attack on a dude.

    To put it another way: what would cause someone more grief- their brother coming home with a black eye or their sister coming home with a black eye?
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  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by GingerFurball View Post
    No it isn't.

    With GF here, if your child is kicked to death just for the way they dress, your not going to turn round and go 'Well thank god it was my son, it'd be horrid if it was my daughter!'

    I'd say kicking anyone to death, whatever ***, is as bad as each other. The murderer is still a murderer, and the family and friends have still lost that someone special, regardless of ***


    FTR, in that case they kicked her boyfriend within an inch of his life too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teja. View Post
    Yeah, It's true that females are on a general level more helpless to defend themselves but it's still on a general level, IMO. It should be a case by case thing.

    However, I'd still think a court would punish the bloke who murdered the female worse than the bloke who murdered the male even if in a hypothetical it was proven that in both cases they were equally helpless to defend themselves due to all the societal immorality surrounding violence towards women. Especially in India. I also think that is ****ing dire.
    Not really. Judges use their judgments as commentary on societal issues and policies. It's their way of getting their voice heard.

    By punishing someone who has committed a crime against a female more harshly than a male it is sending a message that domestic violence (let's just assume it's an act of domestic violence for the sake of it) is a serious issue in the community and there needs to be a) greater awareness of it and b) a stronger deterrent against it to reduce the occurrence of it.


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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    With GF here, if your child is kicked to death just for the way they dress, your not going to turn round and go 'Well thank god it was my son, it'd be horrid if it was my daughter!'

    I'd say kicking anyone to death, whatever ***, is as bad as each other. The murderer is still a murderer, and the family and friends have still lost that someone special, regardless of ***


    FTR, in that case they kicked her boyfriend within an inch of his life too.
    Ok, so what if a 4 year old boy got kicked to death and a 35 year old man got kicked to death.

    Should they be equal sentences?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    With GF here, if your child is kicked to death just for the way they dress, your not going to turn round and go 'Well thank god it was my son, it'd be horrid if it was my daughter!'

    I'd say kicking anyone to death, whatever ***, is as bad as each other. The murderer is still a murderer, and the family and friends have still lost that someone special, regardless of ***


    FTR, in that case they kicked her boyfriend within an inch of his life too.
    Exactly, I can't believe someone needed to make that argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Woah woah woah, Ursula Uppercut said she liked it rough, I swear.
    I had no idea my sister was a female boxer in a 1950s comic. With a name like that I can see how you got the wrong impression...

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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    With GF here, if your child is kicked to death just for the way they dress, your not going to turn round and go 'Well thank god it was my son, it'd be horrid if it was my daughter!'
    Bit of a daft argument that, pretty sure nobody was remotely suggesting that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    With GF here, if your child is kicked to death just for the way they dress, your not going to turn round and go 'Well thank god it was my son, it'd be horrid if it was my daughter!'

    I'd say kicking anyone to death, whatever ***, is as bad as each other. The murderer is still a murderer, and the family and friends have still lost that someone special, regardless of ***


    FTR, in that case they kicked her boyfriend within an inch of his life too.
    If you find the violent murder of a dude equally abhorrent then that's fair enough. But if society felt the same then your initial point about the press would be rather redundant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uppercut View Post
    I had no idea my sister was a female boxer in a 1950s comic. With a name like that I can see how you got the wrong impression...
    Zip it Faldo.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by benchmark00 View Post
    Ok, so what if a 4 year old boy got kicked to death and a 35 year old man got kicked to death.

    Should they be equal sentences?
    Yep, Mandatory life sentance for murder


    Suppose without actually thinking about it direct, i've kinda fallen into believing that 'Hate Crime' shouldn't be distinguished from normal crime in many ways. As I've discovered, I think the motive not the victim is the key issue. Whether the victim is a 4 year old asian girl or a 35 year old white bouncer, its equal from a legal point of view in my eyes. Obviously there are exceptions to this, eg the mental impairment line.... I guess I feel that whether they did it because they thought the victim was a '****' or a 'black ****' shouldn't have an impact. Whilst I abhor racism, I have to accept people have a right to be racist (and I have the right to avoid the fools), and thus i think to legally judge to crimes with the same action and result as different due to someone's thought process behind their actions is going a bit too far

  12. #42
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    Mandatory sentences is often awful populist public policy. There are reasons why discretion is required in specific circumstances.

    Note, don't read discretion as "soft sentencing". They are different.
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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by cpr View Post
    Yep, Mandatory life sentance for murder


    Suppose without actually thinking about it direct, i've kinda fallen into believing that 'Hate Crime' shouldn't be distinguished from normal crime in many ways. As I've discovered, I think the motive not the victim is the key issue. Whether the victim is a 4 year old asian girl or a 35 year old white bouncer, its equal from a legal point of view in my eyes. Obviously there are exceptions to this, eg the mental impairment line.... I guess I feel that whether they did it because they thought the victim was a '****' or a 'black ****' shouldn't have an impact. Whilst I abhor racism, I have to accept people have a right to be racist (and I have the right to avoid the fools), and thus i think to legally judge to crimes with the same action and result as different due to someone's thought process behind their actions is going a bit too far
    Ok say it wasn't murder, say it was a punch in the face that knocked the person out.

    People don't have the right to be racist though. In Australia it's directly legislated against and in other jurisdictions, such as the UK, there are aggravation provisions in circumstances where race was a motive.

  14. #44
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    I think talking in general terms about whether it's worse to harm one broad category of person as opposed to another is missing the point a bit when it comes to hate crimes. Same goes for talking about the difficulty of proving the reasons behind a crime. The argument in favour of hate crime legislation is not "it is worse to harm a person of X ethnicity than Y", it is "it is worse to harm someone because of their ethnicity than for many other reasons", which is something I think most people would agree with.

    Discretion based on intent and motive is used in virtually all criminal sentencing, it's not unique to "hate crime" legislation, it's just a different name for it. A crime with evidence of premeditation is "worse" than a crime of passion, etc etc. Not to mention that proving intent is a central part of any criminal prosecution anyway.
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  15. #45
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    Using race as a motive for a crime isn't the same as being racist, though.
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